UK radical feminists; what to do?

Women were hoodwinked. We were told we had to care for sad men, to include everyone. Men used shame, very successfully, to tell women it was selfish and mean to exclude them.

Women fell for it. Women are still falling for it.

In exchange, we were told we could be sexually liberated, not like those awful prudes. We could 'reclaim' our power by being promiscuous, and by dressing for the male gaze.

We are awarded the status of martyred saints, for the idiotic act of agreeing to destroy the category of 'woman' to admit men, thereby opening the gate to allow our aggressors and predators free reign to enter. Not only that, we agreed to shame other women, to join together to attack women, smear them, deride them, and insult them.

See this thread for examples:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5557242-cancellation-of-wrn-ni-event-at-feile-festival

See also: Amnesty International.

These are intelligent, well meaning, educated, feisty women, who have been sold the lie that the category of 'woman' can include men, and have no idea what the implications are.

You try getting a load of drunk women to do Interpretative Dance!

EuroTerfs: Interpretative Dance at the Bluestocking Pub

CAST

Bavarian — exuberant, stompy, dramatic.

Frenchwoman — theatrical, over‑stylised elegance.

Irishwoman — three sheets to the wind, improvisational.

Dutchwoman — earnest, committed to the bit.

Polishwoman — rhythmic, expressive.

Ukrainian — bold, sweeping gestures.

Scottish‑Flag Beetle — tiny conductor of chaos, proud and patriotic.

SETTING

The Bluestocking Pub, late evening. Warm amber lights, fairy‑light strings, crowded tables filled exclusively with women. Wine bottles everywhere. A small stage with a speaker stack the beetle can climb.

SCENE

[Lights rise slightly. A tambourine rattles offstage.]

BAVARIAN (stepping forward, wobbling slightly) Ladies! Tonight… we interpret the human condition!

IRISHWOMAN (snorts with laughter) Aye, specifically the dramatic swooning variety.

FRENCHWOMAN (places hand to forehead, collapsing into a slow, exaggerated faint) I am overcome… by my own delicate constitution.

DANCE BEAT 1 — “THE FAINTING FITS”

DUTCHWOMAN (earnest, fanning herself with a beer mat) Oh! I cannot bear the weight… of existence!

POLISHWOMAN (joins her, staggering in slow motion) Life… is too… heavy.

UKRAINIAN (swoops in, catching both dramatically) Fear not! I shall rescue you from your… emotional collapse!

[They all fall to the floor in a heap, giggling uncontrollably.]

DANCE BEAT 2 — “THE HEROIC SIGH”

BAVARIAN (rising, puffing chest out) Observe! The mighty sigh of someone who has lifted… absolutely nothing!

[She inhales deeply, then releases a theatrical, trembling sigh. The others copy her, each more exaggerated than the last.]

IRISHWOMAN (pointing at a table of women) Look! They’re already choking on their wine.

DANCE BEAT 3 — “THE PEARL‑CLUTCHING WALTZ”

FRENCHWOMAN (grabbing imaginary pearls) Mon dieu! My sensibilities!

DUTCHWOMAN (whirling around her) Hold tight! They might escape!

POLISHWOMAN & UKRAINIAN (joining hands, spinning in a dizzy circle) Protect the pearls! Protect the pearls!

[They spin until they collapse again, breathless and laughing.]

ENTRANCE OF THE BEETLE

[The Scottish‑flag beetle climbs onto the speaker stack, waving a tiny claw.]

BEETLE (chittering rhythmically)Tap‑tap‑tap!

BAVARIAN (pointing) Our conductor has arrived!

IRISHWOMAN Aye, give us a beat, lass!

[The beetle taps out a jaunty rhythm. The tambourine joins in from offstage.]

DANCE BEAT 4 — “THE MOCK‑HEROIC MARCH”

UKRAINIAN (marching in place, knees high) Forward! Into the great unknown!

POLISHWOMAN (behind her, saluting dramatically) We march… for absolutely no reason!

DUTCHWOMAN (trying to keep time, wobbling) I’m marching! I think!

FRENCHWOMAN (doing a slow, exaggerated strut) I march… with style.

[They form a crooked line, marching toward the audience, then break into laughter.]

FINALE — “THE HUGS AND HICCUPS”

BAVARIAN (arms wide) Ladies! A final flourish!

[They attempt a coordinated spin. It fails spectacularly. They collapse into a pile of hugs, giggles, and mild hiccups.]

IRISHWOMAN (through laughter) Best interpretative dance we’ve ever done.

FRENCHWOMAN (raising her glass)To satire! To joy! To the Bluestocking!

ALL To the Bluestocking!

[The beetle takes a tiny bow].

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

I could write a book about male sexual proclivities, as a hetro sexual woman who was sexually active in the early eighties. Pre AIDS.

As my lovely (sometimes cave man) husband is clear about, all men are potential rapists. It is, as far as he is concerned a matter of self control, social constraints and feisty women like me who keep him respectful.

thats also why males get angered and protective of thier female daughters. They know what goes on in men’s heads.

Cross dressing and kinks in males with power (be that social or personal relationship wise) is very common.

Power by itself can cease to feed the testosterone beast. So they look for other outlets.

Cross dressing was a thing in the nazi party.

Mussolini loved a bit of S & M as did Hitler.

I argued in the eighties that a matriarchy is what is needed, where male boys are taught to understand their urges at an early age.

extreme i might sound, i worked in SV and DVA for many years. The worst bit about my professional life was watching male participant professionals in strategy meetings getting off on discussions about female abuse and in particular genital mutilation.

My deputy and I used to attend together and had a score sheet for male eye dilation etc

I Kid you not.

I can fully understand that. In my rogue youth, I hung out with absolutely the wrong men, and have to admit, watched the wrong stuff.
I had to make a conscious effort to move past this, create new attitudes.
Maybe it's a reason I'm so angry as a male about all this, especially the normalisation of the transgressive male.
I'm aware of the poison of this aspect of male culture, as it's been co-opted into the culture.
And so much has been poisoned as a result.

You only have to read Róisín Michaux/Peaked to see the binfire that is the EU and European nations re traducing women's sex based rights.
In Germany, at one end of your street you have a mega brothel with hundreds of johns visiting everyday, at the other end, places that women visit like gyms that fully allow men to use what should be female exclusive spaces, and in the middle, the most draconian anti free speech rules to punitively penalise anyone criticising self ID, trans ideology.
If that's "anti-TERF heaven", I'll take "pro-TERF hell" instead.

I mostly hung around with males and i was in a group of biker boys.

we had a recent reunion, some of them thought i, as very left wing would support men pretending to be women. They all thought they were being politically right on.

suffice it to say the evening was spent correcting them.

There is another element to our home grown feminism which is the miners strike 1984/5 and the rise of working class women

There is another element to our home grown feminism which is the miners strike 1984/5 and the rise of working class women

The Dagenham strike was in the 60s, so even earlier.

I think they were represented among the suffragettes too weren’t they?

So there was a question earlier today in one of my groups about TERFs in the UK, why are they so strong there, etc. Let me elaborate on something.

There is something special in mainstream British feminism that is quite different from European feminism(s), but since the English speaking internet concerns mostly the Anglosphere and not Europe, due to us having separate, isolated debates in each country/language, you won't likely ever hear how the UK is substantially different.
It is important to understand the logic of British feminism. Unlike European feminism, which is mostly inclusive and focused on stuff like equal pay, care, safe design of public space and general equity, in the UK it was always about "separate but equal".

British centres of power were always men-only, and many British feminists didn't react the way European women did (aka pushed their way into male spaces, so that these became co-ed spaces), but created their own, separate spaces, which they then aggressively policed the same way British men did with theirs. Add some Victorian prudishness and bioessentialism, that was abandoned in Europe after WWII for obvious reasons, but not in the UK, and voilà, here come British second-wave radfems and the TERFs.

I am from the Czech Republic where I currently live; I lived in Norway, Poland and the Netherlands, I speak fluently multiple European languages and understand few others; I don't say that to brag, but to show my ability to do the comparative analysis, since I study the topic closely.

Out of EU member states, only in Bulgaria and Hungary are trans rights worse than in the UK at the moment, with Hungary being expected to get substantially better soon, and in neither of those two countries are trans people, and especially trans women, as demonised as in the UK.

In all EU member states transphobia comes exclusively from far right places; it is unheard of that liberals or anyone non-far right would say what is absolutely the mainstream in the UK, including Hungary and Bulgaria.
If you are saying the stuff JKR is saying, you are 100 % aligned with far right politics.

We had an attempt by a group of our far right senators to enact a bill proposal similar to what is in the UK, but the proposal was killed within a week before it could have been even voted upon in the Chamber of Deputies. Just for instance.
Scandinavian feminism is focused mostly on fair share of care and chores, German feminism focuses mostly on equal pay, Kita for everyone and the like, Polish feminism is mostly about access to abortion, Czech feminism is mostly about equal pay and safety from domestic violence - I could go on, but all in all, men are welcome to participate and the goal is to create equity for everyone, regardless of their gender. Together.
We don't get British obsession with separate spaces for women, women here are absolutely fine with the way things are, mostly because cultures in the Continent are far less prudish and overall we treat men and women as one people rather than different species.

Moreover, because of civil law rather than common law, we have different approach to legal texts and their interpretations; this makes it different too.
Not just regarding trans rights, but also regarding women's rights, I am often amazed by how much backward the UK is in so many ways compared to the EU (again, including places like Hungary, this needs to be stressed). I often see women in English-speaking debates saying things like "ugh, men" on things that actually concern problems that are specifically British and that stem mostly from both societies' tendency to separate already boys from girls, treating them differently and sexualising women in contexts we don't really see as sexual at all.

We can't really get this across the Channel, because we just don't have the power to do so. For instance Czech debate on feminism is quite isolated; it's interesting, but no more than 15 million people would ever be able to participate in it (CZ/SK) due to the language barrier, the same goes for Scandinavia (17 million), Benelux (28 million), Poland (38 million), or even DACH (95 million). It is nothing compared to half a billion people of the US, UK, CA, AU, NZ and IE that are giving tone to the worldwide debate in English.

So, if you are a British trans woman, you would do yourself a great favour if you moved to mainland Europe. You will be welcomed and cherished (for the most part).

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

Faux academic jargon.

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.

As an Australian I’ve often wondered why our sisters in the UK differ so much on this issue given our common cultural histories.

My theory is its a combination of the historical vestiges of internalised misogyny & classism that distinguishes UK radical feminists from feminism internationally.

I'm not sure 'prudishness' is the right word but there's definitely an aversion to the expression of femininity & masculinity that's a proxy for sexuality in presentation hence the resistance to 'gender' & it's consequential designation as a stereotypical cultural imposition rather than a natural evolutionary adaptation.

That there isn't any other room than this rigid unscientific dogma points to a psychological complex/hangup of some sorts & probably a sexual one at that because its associated with the expression of sexuality. Internalised misogyny perhaps that traces back to Victorian England perhaps?

I’ve also noticed that what separates many British women from Australian women is an obsession with classism & with the history of hierarchical pressures in England that are still ever present that's no surprise. Interestingly, JK Rowling in her Witch Trails podcasts made a big deal about how her college years particularly were strongly affected by class difference. So I suspect that even with those who denounce hierarchical class structures there's an unconscious desire to finally stake a class territory of their very own…& that's reproductive biology here.