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Shit. Now I agree with Trump!

(118 Posts)
ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 21-Oct-18 13:15:30

www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/us/politics/transgender-trump-administration-sex-definition.html

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration is considering narrowly defining gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by genitalia at birth, the most drastic move yet in a governmentwide effort to roll back recognition and protections of transgender people under federal civil rights law.

A series of decisions by the Obama administration loosened the legal concept of sex in federal programs, including in education and health care, recognizing sex largely as an individual’s choice — and prompting fights over bathrooms, dormitories, single-sex programs and other arenas where gender was once seen as a simple concept. Conservatives, especially evangelical Christians, were incensed.

Now the Department of Health and Human Services is spearheading an effort to establish a legal definition of sex under Title IX, the federal civil rights law that bans gender discrimination in education programs that receive government financial assistance, according to a memo obtained by The New York Times.

The department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable.” The agency’s proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times. Any dispute about one’s sex would have to be clarified using genetic testing.

HandlebarTash81 Sun 21-Oct-18 13:17:12

Shit. This has peak-GC’d me!

Redkeyboard Sun 21-Oct-18 13:19:30

Republicans are also in favour of laws against stealing. Why don’t democrats campaign repeal those too? FFS.

Lottapianos Sun 21-Oct-18 13:23:18

'The agency’s proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times'

I like it. It's a strange time to be alive. People who you normally find absolutely repulsive are talking sense left right and centre

BesmirchingMotherhood Sun 21-Oct-18 13:23:26

Well, he has to be good for something, right?

OvaHere Sun 21-Oct-18 13:26:01

The decision by Obama to change sex to gender in Title IX was a terrible move as was the way he went about it. I don't know what he was thinking and I did generally like Obama.

It's the reason that recent state championships in Connecticut had something like 5 males competing in the girls race and are able to take scholarships from girls.

I can't disagree with this move. Women and girls in the US deserve better than to be crowded out by males.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 21-Oct-18 13:27:58

It's bizarre isn't it. This seems like a very sensible commonsense thing to do, yet it is being met with howls of outrage.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel Sun 21-Oct-18 13:28:14

This will be one of Trump's more popular acts.

deepwatersolo Sun 21-Oct-18 13:38:41

The Democrats were very quick to embrace the TRA agenda, because they thought it made them look progressive and woke, without any danger it might alienate their billionaire and Wall Street donors, who don‘t want economic inequality and its roots - their rackets - addressed by policy makers. Heck, it may have opened the money spigot even more via people like Jenny Pritzker.
I have heard some women say online, ‚well with trump at least this madness won‘t go on‘.
It is really troubling that the Left has been hijacked by big money and Therefore won’t address anything beyond identity politics any more. That has been its downfall imo.

charlestonchaplin Sun 21-Oct-18 13:50:25

The only problem is that they conflate sex and gender. I think people should be free to express their gender identities without fear of discrimination or harassment.

NopeNi Sun 21-Oct-18 14:26:12

I have a feeling we all agree on this one topic (ish) but with very different motivations. I don't see Trump acting out of care for women to be honest.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sun 21-Oct-18 14:27:37

The only problem is that they conflate sex and gender. I think people should be free to express their gender identities without fear of discrimination or harassment.

YY. Sex needs to be precisely defined in law as a protected characteristic. But equally it should be unacceptable to discriminate against someone due to their gender presentation.

VickyEadie Sun 21-Oct-18 14:29:32

equally it should be unacceptable to discriminate against someone due to their gender presentation.

That's unarguable for all of us here - just as it's wrong to discriminate against someone because of a wide range of other characteristics.

MagicMix Sun 21-Oct-18 14:32:10

I think it's helpful to remember this here.

glenthebattleostrich Sun 21-Oct-18 14:32:45

A stoped clock is right twice a day ...

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Sun 21-Oct-18 14:34:35

The right wing solution (everyone must conform to the gender expression culturally associated with their sex) is almost as bad as the left wing solution (you can choose your gender expression while EITHER pretending sex doesn't exist OR undergoing harmful medical and surgical interventions to coerce your body into the appearance of the sex culturally associated with your preferred gender expression)

donquixotedelamancha Sun 21-Oct-18 14:35:02

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

The only problem is that they conflate sex and gender. I think people should be free to express their gender identities without fear of discrimination or harassment.

Unfortunately this. I doubt that Trump will take the opportunity to ensure that Transgender people are not discriminated against. Sadly the US are showing us where a polarised, shouty politics leads.

FWRLurker Sun 21-Oct-18 14:38:51

As an American I really wish Trump's administration would please stay quiet on this issue because the state of politics in the USA is such that anything Trump says is instantly marked as evil and anathema to anyone on the left.

We saw the same thing happen about free trade. It used to be that tariffs / protectionism were a Democratic issue - unions and workers rights groups were in favor of tariffs. Now that Trump is anti-free trade people on the left are acting as if it was always obvious that Free trade is fantastic and not a problem for anyone and Trump is evil for proposing the types of protectionist measures that were advocated by democrats only a few cycles back.

What we need is a moderate democrat or moderate republican to speak up about it in consultation with women's groups. Yeah not holding my breath.

Needmoresleep Sun 21-Oct-18 14:40:14

Failing that some sensible athletes?

ohello Sun 21-Oct-18 14:42:23

It was in the first paragraph, written by the journalist who conflates sex and gender. In this part, the journalist quotes the press release issued by Trumps aid:

"The department argued in its memo that key government agencies needed to adopt an explicit and uniform definition of gender as determined “on a biological basis that is clear, grounded in science, objective and administrable.” The agency’s proposed definition would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times. Any dispute about one’s sex would have to be clarified using genetic testing."

And they get it right. Trump had somebody checking into this.

Needmoresleep Sun 21-Oct-18 14:43:34

Or people running hostels. Or gyms. etc.

What seems to be happening here is the more, and varied people who stick their heads above the parapet, the moe who will follow, until a couple of mainstream journalists start to look into it, and perhaps an independent minded politician.

My theory is that each voice emboldens five more.

Needmoresleep Sun 21-Oct-18 14:45:21

If nothing else Trump sees a vote winner. Most people are not conviced by the self-ID argument.

And if he gets reelected, who will be to blame?

ohello Sun 21-Oct-18 14:45:43

But, I'm not really trusting them to do the bathrooms right. They'll probably try to say that you have to use the facility of your birth sex, which means the transmen would supposedly need to use the women's room.

Sorry, if you threw women under the bus trying to save your own selfish skin AND you look like a man, then stay out.

AspieAndProud Sun 21-Oct-18 14:45:59

I think the definition has to be based on chromosomes, specifically the presence or absence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome, not genitalia - which can be ambiguous in children with intersex conditions. This has nothing to do with gender.

Also, sex is determined at conception. If you require IVF because you are carrying a condition that would affect a male baby doctors must be able to determine the sex of the embryo they propose to implant.

ohello Sun 21-Oct-18 14:49:28

They need a third gender-neutral space...

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