If your employer is paying for you to study, do you also get study leave as well?

[guiltyandfedup]

I am currently in the middle of doing a Bsc which is very specific to the job I do within the NHS. I asked to go on the course, which is via distance learning as it is the only way of achieving a better grading in the future without going into management. The course will and has already been used to do 'extra' work within the team which no-one else is doing!

Had my apprasial a few weeks ago and was informed that for the second year, they are willing to pay for the course (about £1500) but want halve my study leave. I currently work 3.5 days per week, and have 1 day per week study leave. The course is 16 hours per week so quiteb a bit of work.

No reason has been given for this reduction and to be honest I am not sure i can do it on half a day per week, am also feeling like 'whats the point' in showing willing in doing other service deveoplment work if they are not going to support me.

Just wondering what other peoples experiences are, especially if they work in the public sector/NHS.

No idea in the public sector/NHS.

In the private sector, you'd be biting the employer's hand off as v. few will pay for training and study leave except for as part of a training contract - e.g. trainee accountants earn less to factor this cost in.

To put it in perspective, a law has just been passed allowing employees to ask for unpaid time off to study (no course fees) and to have that request considered reasonably.

Sorry, am bitter and twisted today.

Oh Ribena that sounds crap!
I think I am annoyed because they have changed the 'terms'of me doing this degree half way through, am also having DC 2 in september so it adds to the pressure big time.

I just feel they are getting good value for money with me doing this course and this has made me feel a bit crap/devalued .

What Ribena said. A day a week study leave plus course fees for a course you requested to do (ie not essential for your role), is extremely generous. I don't know how normal it is in the public sector, I'm viewing this from a private & voluntary sector background.

If you only work 3.5 days a week anyway, giving you a whole day off for study a week is a large percentage of your working time. Perhaps they felt given you work part time you ought to be able to find most of your study time out of the portion of the week you are not working for them? Perhaps they were struggling to cover your role one day a week, or would if they continued on that basis, but think they can manage for half a day?

You think they are getting good value for money. Value as in actual financial value, or just useful knowledge/skills you are acquiring? Would they have to employ a new person to do this extra work? As it's NHS I'm assuming value would be in terms of money-saving rather than money-generating.

I would expect there to be a policy around private study in the NHS, which would outline things like study leave. Have you checked?

I'd check the policy and then I do think it's reasonable for you to enquire what the reasoning is for the decision. However as long as the decision falls within whatever policy the NHS operate for private study, it's going to be a case of like it or lump it really.

Same at my place of work (and last couple of places I worked): They'd pay for your course, but first time only, so if you had to retake, for example, you'd need to pay yourself. Only the day of the exam was given as study leave, anything else you'd need to use your leave if you wanted.

The only places that I know of in the private sector where you have more study leave (and even then only a couple of days per subject per term), you're on a highly reduced salary, as you're seen as a student employee.

WEll it seems that maybe I am 'lucky' then!!

Obviously what I/we do is not money making, but as a team/professional service we need to be offering high quality and evidence based interventions, which inevitably means higher level study once you get to a certain level. This is what the 'puiblic' want, highly skilled competent clinicians.

It seems a bit unfair that i will effectively have to do 3/4 of this in my own time!

Also, the Trust is working on a non management career pathway for people who want become specialist clinicians rather than pure management, to enter into this I HAVE to have a BSc.

our funding was through the SHA but now managed locally. dh is currently doing a masters over two years; one day every two weeks; he should have a study day on the alternate week. this study leave is constantly given up for other service demands but he does get toil which helps. As he started under the initial finding direct from SHA they have honoured the study leave. however, if he was starting this year then he'd only get the lecture hours for the modules.

I'm doing a BA next year again the funding has been agreed under the original agreement with the SHA so will get one year full time (and few extra days holiday because of the semesters )

Your employer, or the public may benefit from your study, but it's not essential to your job and you are the one who requested to do it. So on that basis I don't actually think it is unfair to expect you to do 3/4 of it in your own time. I think the issue is their moving the goalposts, rather than the reduced study time being anything other than still generous.

Hi Flowery

I understand what you are saying, but dont forget the NHS is not a business (for all it might model itself on the private sector!).

Not all outcomes can be measured in terms of cutting costs!

Given the choice myself, I would much rather receive care from someone who was a specialist in their chosen field and I would expect that this would be actively encouraged and supported by the NHS system as a whole.

Unfortunately not ALL the clinical staff working in the NHS are well motivated to persue further training so surely they should be 'snapping MY hand off' if I am willing to go the extra mile for THEM

In my NHS jobs they have only ever offered either paid time for the course, or fees and study in your own time. It is a bit crap though, especially when it will make you more effective in your role.

One thing I noticed when AfC came in was the emphasis on paying you only for what was necessary for the role, not neccessarily giving you a grade which reflects your skills, knowledge, and experience.

So some study time plus covering your fees is quite a generous offer IMO, but obviously it's a comedown from what they were offering before.

Also, if they only ever let you do what is strictly 'necessary' for the role then how will people ever develop during their careers?

I think they require you to show development, eg with KSF stuff, but don't want to pay more to reflect it

Mind you, I may be looking at doing a CV for a new job myself if you know who gets in

You are sounding a tiny bit patronising there guiltyandfedup - I'm sure it's not your intention.

Of course the NHS is not a business, and of course outcomes are not all measured in terms of cutting costs, no one implied anything otherwise.

I queried whether your value for money comment meant that your study was actually bringing the NHS a net financial benefit. The answer is no. That doesn't mean the NHS isn't benefiting from your study, but given there is no tangible financial benefit, 'value for money' is really in the eye of the budgetholder, and whether your fees plus all that time off is a justifiable spend of their learning and development budget. Given the current financial climate that budget may be being squeezed.

The fact that your study is costing the NHS money overall not saving money certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't be supported and encouraged. Of course development is important and both parties are benefiting here, which is great. But fees paid and half a day off a week to study is generous support and encouragement.

And no one ever said you should only be allowed to do what is 'strictly necessary' for the role either. Of course it's good for all employers to encourage development outside what is needed for employees' jobs. But the fact that you were the one who requested to do the study has to be relevant in terms of to what extent the money and time off you are getting is generous.

As I said previously, given the previous arrangements were more generous I think you are more than within your rights to query what has changed, and to check whatever NHS policy is relevant. Context is everything so previous arrangments and if you for example know loads of people in very similar situations who are getting loads more time off or something, then those things are important. But I think a bit of external context is no bad thing either, apart from anything else to hopefully help you feel slightly less hard-done-by.

Right, I am less tactful that Flowery (and mighty grumpy about the election), so I'm going to be a bit mean.

People in the private sector want to improve their careers too. They often have to do so evenings and weekends. They often have to pay for the courses.

I know that the NHS is not a business, but the public sector finances are in tatters, and that means that the NHS (and other public sector) employers need to stop doing a lot of the things that are 'nice to have' or 'nice to offer' and focus on the frontline key services. It could be argued that one of the reasons that public spending has spiralled out of control is the vast difference in expectation about what is normal and supportive between the types of employers.

I now that's harsh, but I do say it as someone with many relatives employed in the public sector.

Wow a day off a week when you only work 3.5 days is a LOT of study time allowed as a proportion of your working week.

Professionals studying for accountancy or actuarial qualifications would be lucky to get a day off a week to study out of a full time working week. They are expected to do the majority of it in their own time.

They're not asking you to do the course in half a day a week - they are asking you to do some of it in your own time as well as some on study leave. Given this course was your idea, and is to benefit your career, I think they are being generous in paying for it and giving you some study leave! It's clearly something that will hopefully benefit you and them, so they are contributing, but you must expect to do some of the study in your own time.

Hi flowery no, I honestly wasn't being patronised, but i do struggle with people starting with the viewpoint that everything value can be quantified in financial terms, whilst the NHS obviously needs to have good financial control of its costs, the value for money element can be very difficult to measure, especially in the field i work in (we dont'fix' people ie new hips or cataracts- it is much more complex and subjective than that).
I could be the most knowledgable and skilled person ion my field but still not be offering 'better value for money' in terms of budgets!

I reaslise also that the public finances are in 'tatters' but a lot of this is about the huge underspend that went on during previous administrations, the huge 'overspend' had to occur at some point if we as a country didnt want to end up being cared for in third world conditions people forget that!

The overspend also occuered in part (in the NHS at least)due to huge underspening on training, recruitment and retention leading to huge numbers of phenomenally expensive 'agency staff'. The trust I work for is only just clearing a huge financial defecit that was built up this way in the early to mid 90's.

And up until last year our trust wasn't even able to offer a single hour of external training as there was no budget for it at all!!

And I feel it is a bit unfair to compare what I am 'getting' up against what a trainee accountant for example would earn, please don't forget that I have already obtained my first degree, been a poverty stricken student and will never go on to earn the salary of an accountant, have any of the 'perks', bonuses or renumeration that many others with similar skill levels will have!

Its not all rosy in the public sector, and surely the least they can do is pay for the training that they are saying I need to do in order to progress!!

Hhm, I don't think you're ever going to quite see things from the 'other side' of the fence. That's fine, your perogative.

I wasn't comparing you to the earnings of a trainee accountant - I was saying that such a high training burden would normally be factored into a salary if it was supported, as in the case of a trainee accountant. To expect the employer to take on the hugh training burden at a salary and package that wasn't designed for it, and be annoyed when they don't, is a bit unreasonable to be honest. Whether you are trying to make money or just keep budgets under control.

I think, fundamentally, public sector workers will never understand how many nice supportive things they get that the private sector would dream of. The private sector will never understand the bureaucracy of the public. Such is life.

"i do struggle with people starting with the viewpoint that everything value can be quantified in financial terms"

I can't see anyone on this thread saying that.

Yes quantifying value is challenging when there is no tangible financial benefit to measure, but in terms of how a specific budget is spent, the budgetholders need to make a decision as to where their money is best spent in terms of getting the most benefit for (in your case) the public. If there's nothing to actually measure as such, then it's all about taking a viewpoint, forming an opinion as to how the taxpayers' money can be most beneficially spent on learning and development for NHS staff.

Someone has decided that the extra it costs to give you so much time off to study could be more beneficially spent elsewhere, provide more 'value' to the public spent elsewhere. And that is correct because you will still do your studying, you will still gain the extra skills/knowledge and the public will still benefit, but it will have cost the NHS a little less and thereby provided greater value for money to the taxpayer.

I feel for you guiltyandfedup because they have changed the goalposts for you halfway through.

I'm a qualified actuary and at my work, thankfully after I had already qualified, they slashed the study day entitlement for trainee actuaries in half. Everyone was quite pissed off naturally, but the study package had always been subject to change at any point and had only been brought into line with what other employers were offering.

The reality is that study like you are doing primarily benefits you and they were being extremely generous in the first instance.