Is it fair to assume that if I take my employer to a tribunal, no one will ever employ me again?

bohemianbint · 2007-10-15T11:54:40+00:00

And if so, considering I'm being discriminated against after having a baby, that's really unfair, isn't it? How will I explain that I can't ask my previous employer for a reference? I'm thinking if I go through with this I'm going to be forced to freelance...

MintyDixCharrington · 15/10/2007 12:56

take the bastards to a tribunal
they have to give you a reference (even if it just confirms dates of employment etc), you'll get another job no problem
and if anyone asks, tell them that you left because of sexual discrimination which was upheld at tribunal

if even 1% of people who had a case took employers to a tribunal, life would be a lot better for working women IMO

do it!

Original poster

bohemianbint · 15/10/2007 12:59

Cheers Minty. People are really trying to put me off, but to be honest I have nothing to lose and I'm just so angry that my boss has demoted me, kept on my maternity cover and is giving him all my work whilst I struggle to live on less than £4k per year. I'm deffo going to do it, just as soon as my solicitor confirms she'll take it on a no win no fee basis...

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krabbiepatty · 15/10/2007 13:00

They do have to give you a reference. With a negotiated settlement you can often agree the terms of your reference. Some employers probably would be a little bit shy of employing someone they know to have brought a tribunal case but anyone you would want to work for should be OK about it especially if you explain what happened.

MintyDixCharrington · 15/10/2007 13:01

GOOD!

I didn't take an employer to a tribunal when I had a CAST IRON case, and I do regret it. At the time I just wanted to leave, get another fuck off job and show them - but actually I should have sued them. It would have really improved things for other women at the same place (and made me at least £250k richer, ho hum)

Go GO GO!

MintyDixCharrington · 15/10/2007 13:01

GOOD!

I didn't take an employer to a tribunal when I had a CAST IRON case, and I do regret it. At the time I just wanted to leave, get another fuck off job and show them - but actually I should have sued them. It would have really improved things for other women at the same place (and made me at least £250k richer, ho hum)

Go GO GO!

Original poster

bohemianbint · 15/10/2007 13:17

I didn't realise they have to give you a reference, I figured my boss (being an arsey bastard) would go out of his way to say I was unreliable and missed x days due to child being ill etc.

Actually, there may be a way around it if I can use previous clients as refs (although these clients were provided by boss and would definitely mention it to him, I imagine.)

How long ago was your case Minty? Is it too long ago to do anything about now?

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flowerybeanbag · 15/10/2007 13:21

Bohemian mention this to your solicitor, krabbie is right it is usual to agree wording of any reference to be provided when settlement is reached.

Even if the agreement is to only give factual dates etc, you can add detail and substance with contact details for former clients.

Original poster

bohemianbint · 15/10/2007 13:25

Cheers flowerybeanbag. This is still the same case that you gave me advice about a couple of months ago! It looks like I have a really good case, as I presume a solicitor wouldn't want to take this on in no win, no fee capacity unless she was sure I was going to win?

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flowerybeanbag · 15/10/2007 13:26

You are right, she won't take it on on that basis if she wasn't pretty sure of a good outcome of some kind. Sounds positive, hope she's good

SaintJude · 15/10/2007 13:28

You CAN ask your previous employer for a reference after a tribunal (been there done that).

if they say anything derogatory or pertaining to the tribunal, you can take further action against them.

i've had no problems with getting other employment since my tribunal. I dont mention it unless they ask though.

stealthsquiggle · 15/10/2007 13:29

I took my previous employer to tribunal, they settled at the last minute, mutual confidentiality clause, and I just quoted previous employers as references instead - no-one questioned it but I would have explained the situation if they had. Go for it!

olala · 15/10/2007 13:30

IF you're a lawyer, it is pretty much a given that once you take them to a tribunal, unless you go into a totally different area of law, you ain't getting anything like as good a job ever again! That is my experience anyway, not personally, just have wacthed it happen. Lawyers. They're constantly treating their employees illegally. Its mind blowing!

wheresthevalium · 15/10/2007 13:33

olala, tell me about it, currently considering doing the same with my employers (solicitors) but I know I will have to either move towns or work in another area of employment if I do sigh...

wannaBe · 15/10/2007 13:37

I would be very careful about taking an employer to a tribunal unless I could be sure that I was going to win enough to enable me not to work again.

A girl I worked with took the company, a very large, multi-national organization, to tribunal for sexual discrimination and they settled at the last minute. She got £8000 compensation, and although they provided a reference stating dates of employment, when asked by future employer if they would employ her again, they said no. They didn?t give details of why not, they simply said no so it wasn?t violating the terms of the settlement. And she had to sign a confidentiality clause saying that she wouldn?t disclose the fact she?d been to tribunal or details of the settlement.

She was out of work for about 5 years after that.

I was discriminated against at interview stage once. I actually got the job and the company then turned around and told me I couldn?t work for them because I have a disability, despite the fact it wouldn?t have been a problem. I could have taken them to court and I?m sure I would have won, but I think a case like that might have made it to local media and I would then have been branded a trouble maker. Thanks but no.

olala · 15/10/2007 13:41

o you poor thing valium. Excellent name. They're total bastards aren;t they. I just cannot believe some of the things that go on at my (human rights!) firm.

Example 1: everyone gets a bonus except the member of our team who works part time. Ask management for reason for this. Answer? 'BEcasue she works part time'

Example 2: Woman off on unpaid parental leave with terminally ill child. For 5 days. Returns to work to a demotion, in anticipation of her need to be 'less relied upon' that she has not mentioned even once.

bastards.

None of us can do anything about it...though we rae working on building a stong union presence in our firm to at least provide moral support, and then once we have 50% in the union, we have all sorts of rights to take industrial action. One can but hope!

olala · 15/10/2007 13:44

I think in terms of all of this discrimination etc, and blatant violations of employment law - wouldn't it be SO much better if you just had to report them to an external body, who then took the action for you - not in your name, and not even up to you to report, but once an extrenal officaly body got to know of it, then they were compelled to investiaget and take the apporporiate action. That way the people who suffer all this stuff do not get branded trouble makers, as it is out of their control what happens about it, AND the employers have something genuine to fear if they do wrong. Like a big fat fine and some naming and shaming.

Something needs to be done as at present employment law only protects us in an academic sense. The time, money and stress,s not to mention long term career damage, of any action, is prohibitve and employers and walking all over us!!

scarybee · 15/10/2007 13:55

Not at all. I took my old employer to tribunal for constructive dismissal and sex discrimination. They settled the morning of the tribunal and I have had 2 jobs since - both with bigger and more prestigious companies within the same sector.

Do not let the bastards get away with treating women like crap!

RibenaBerry · 15/10/2007 14:00

bohemian,

I agree with most of what others have said, but just bear a few things in mind:

a tribunal cannot order a reference. As others have said, one as part of a settlement is common. However, even if you sue and win, a tribunal has no jurisdiction to award a reference. So long as they do not say anything misleading, the employer is fine.
a settlement is, 9 times out of 10, much better than suing. Even if you are no win no fee, the time costs for preparing a hearing come out of your win. That means that you see less of your money. Also, a settlement can include a reference which, as I said, a hearing result will not.
do not underestimate how stressful a tribunal is. I would personally advise recognising a discount against what you would expect if you won at tribunal to allow for that, no matter how strong you think your case is.

wheresthevalium · 15/10/2007 14:01

Mine is really simple,

They gave me a contract (PT) and I signed it, 3 months later they said, hang on we've made a mistake, we calculated your salary based on 30 hours pw not 25. They said that I had to sign an amended contrsct for the lower amount and pay back the 'overpayment' out of my salary, or I would be sacked. Given that it was totally their mistake I think it is really unreasonable.

Original poster

bohemianbint · 15/10/2007 14:33

RibenaBerry - I was told that costs for preparing the hearing will come from the employer's insurance, is this not the case? Or does it depend on who you go with?

I am quite worried about the hearing. Do I have to be in court (will it be in court?) at the same time as my boss?

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Original poster

bohemianbint · 15/10/2007 16:42

?

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WideWebWitch · 15/10/2007 16:48

Is there anyone at your current co who could give you a ref outside of the HR dept?

Many, many companies will only give dates of employment and final salary etc when asked for a reference so I wouldn't worry about that too much.

So you won't necessarily have to explain to any new employer that you can't ask prev employer for a reference. I'd read all their HR policies too if you can and get ready to quote them back at them. A co I worked for actively states it will NOT discriminate against anyone who's taken previous action.

Make sure:

You have THOROUGHLY documented EVERYTHING that's happened
you have your grievance in writing
You have copies of all emails, your job contract, job description, any notifications they've they've given you, anything at all you've got

It is VERY VERY stressful and expensive to go to tribunal, are you in a union? Can you join one?

WideWebWitch · 15/10/2007 16:53

You do have to be in the tribunal hearing with your boss. They get to hear what you have to say and vice versa. It is a very long and stressful road and can take a while to come to court. So keeping records of what happened AT THE TIME is vital. THey will try to cast doubt on your memory a year down the line when you're in the hearing.

Don't worry abuot their costs, who cares where they get the money from?

tiredandgrumpy · 15/10/2007 16:54

I am currently wrapping up a settlement from my previous employers who made me redundant whilst I was on mat leave. The whole process has dragged on 6 months and has at times been rather stressful, however, I have started another job in the meantime (& got a reference out of my old employer).

Things I have learnt along the way - try your home insurance policy. They sometimes have legal cover for employment issues.

Also, tribunal process can be very expensive & stressful. Even if you get to the end of it and win chances are you will only recover legal fees. Much better to settle out of court. Am so relieved that we've managed to settle before tribunal.

Would I do it again? Probably yes, although I'd be better prepared for the incredible cost of legal fees. I have still lost out overall as my new job pays far less, but at least I've forced my old employer to make the transition a little easier.

PrincessAfterLife · 15/10/2007 16:57

My DH decided that the effects on his health would be too much if he took his ex-employers to a tribunal. A case he would almost definitely have won with the evidence he had. It has taken him a long time to let go and feel at peace after how he was treated there but he still feels that was the right thing to do. It's a personal thing. If it was me I would have fought back, but everyone is different . Maybe you should think ahead to how you will feel in 5 or 10 years time if you don't take this up now? Go with your instinct.