Israeli women soldiers' warnings dismissed on October 7, apparently partly due to sexism

[Jane3212]

( Note : I don't want this thread to devolve into a debate over Israel & Palestine. I hope everyone here can agree Hamas had to be fought against, whatever other opinions they have on the war and wider situation)
I've recently been reading different topics about Israeli women and I was shocked to read the extent to which the brave women lookouts on October 7 were dismissed, apparently partly due to gender potentially, though there were others reasons also (rigid military ideas of what an attack would be, for one). If they had been listened to, the situation could have been ameliorated probably even if too late to avert- and they'd been warning for months, so averting it probably could have been possible.

I'd long thought that the fact women soldiers serve on equal terms was a good point of the IDF, but it seems female soldiers face similar issues to other countries. It's made me want to investigate how far female soldiers' intelligence being ignored is a wider issue generally

The warnings that were ignored weren't just from the Israeli female soldiers though.

Reports and investigative books indicate that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu received pre-attack warnings from regional leaders and intelligence officials prior to October 7, 2023: 1, 2, 3]

• Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan (MBZ): The President of the United Arab Emirates reportedly called Netanyahu about a week and a half before the attacks to warn him that Hamas was planning a major, high-stakes operation (described as an "earthquake"). 1, 2]
• Abbas Kamel: Egypt's intelligence chief delivered in-person and phone alerts to Israeli officials weeks and days prior, warning of severe instability and a looming explosion in Gaza based on human intelligence embedded with Hamas. 1, 2, 3]
• US & Internal Officials: U.S. House Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Michael McCaul and various international reports indicated warnings were passed to Israel days in advance, though Israeli intelligence initially stated they lacked specific tactical warnings. 1]

Yes this was common knowledge at the time. Net didnt listen to thrm because he wanted a war was what I took from it. Now they are being obscured, blamed and ignored because they are women. Possibly why they were in those posts as so easily dismissed by a far right leaning public.

I hope I dont bring my clingon troll with me who seems to have been following me since the ME thread I posted on over a month ago...apparently I called the posters there entitled. I thought I said hysterical but whatever. This is why those boards are so sycophantic though, bullies. I realised after that experience (too late) everyone just blocks them.

I agree he wanted a war. I suggested this during the conflict on these boards and was rounded on by the usual pro Israel posters.
Now the truth is coming out.

How’s the thread going for you so far, OP?

I don’t mean to be rude, but you have come to realise this rather late. Not that it matters as it should never be forgotten. Yes, what happened is extremely shocking. What’s more these young women were left completely unprotected - many to be killed or captured, not even having guns.
Then those who survived this hell were expected to go back to their posts! :

Excerpt from Israeli paper Haaretz 2023
"They told me: 'You need to come back, your position is ready,'" says another spotter, Shir. "Nobody cares how I am or if I'm fit to do this - the main thing [for them] is for me to return to my nine- hour shift watching screens all day."
^^
Shir has decided that she will report back to the base - but not because of the threats and intimidation.
^^
"It's important to make clear that we're returning only for the sake of our friends who were murdered or kidnapped," she says, "and not for everyone who abandoned us there."
^^
“Somehow, Shir and her colleagues are not surprised by the attitude they have encountered; just perhaps a little unnerved by its intensity. During their years of military service, they say they've grown accustomed to the fact that they "don't count." Nor was any notice given to the repeated warnings they raised before Hamas' infiltration on Black Saturday.
Warnings that, it seems to them, were going in one IDF earpiece and out the other.”
^^
“These included reports about Hamas' preparations near the border fence, its drone activity in recent months, its efforts to knock out cameras, the extensive use of vans and motorcycles, and even rehearsals for the shelling of tanks.”
^^
“The spotters believe Hamas was actually being rather negligent: it didn't try to hide anything and its actions were out in the open. But throughout this period, they say senior officers in the IDF's Gaza Division and Southern Command refused to listen to their warnings. They believe this stemmed partly from arrogance but also from male chauvinism.”
^^
“The spotters are exclusively "young women and young women commanders," explains one of them. "There's no doubt that if men had been sitting at those screens, things would look different."
^^
“In some ways, the hours leading up to the morning of October 7 were quite ordinary.
Noga, a spotter stationed at the IDF's intelligence unit at Kissufim, close to the Gaza border, spotted an unfamiliar, suspicious-looking man standing in front of one of the barrier gates erected along the Gaza Strip border.“
^^
“Her report reached Lt. Col. Meir Ohayon, commander of the 51st Battalion in the Golani Brigade, who at 3 A.M. made his way to the location and, after sighting the man, fired tear gas at him. The suspect turned back and went to a Hamas observation post about 300 meters (nearly 1,000 feet) from the fence, which is the distance at which Palestinians are allowed to stay. The spotter observed several other people at the same position, and it seemed to her that a briefing was being held there.“
^^
All of the above seemed unusual and disturbing to her, so she shared her feelings with the other spotters as well as the on-duty commander. However, at the end of a discussion that lasted about a minute in the operations room and in consultation with the division, it was decided to return to normal.
^^
“I’m sorry I had to wake you at this hour,” the spotter apologized to Ohayon, “but I still think there’s something strange here.”
^^
“Ohayon was unperturbed and replied that it’s always best to be vigilant in order to avoid surprises. A few hours later, it became clear that this “vigilance” did not prevent the surprise. “
^^
“This was merely the final piece in the puzzle, though. In retrospect, after she fully understood the scope of the disaster, and after she had lost dozens of friends who were either killed or kidnapped by Hamas, the sheer scale of the disconnect became clear to the spotter.”
^^
“While she had been trying to understand who the suspicious figure was and what he was up to, the IDF and Shin Bet security service had already held discussions following a warning about a terrorist infiltration. It was serious enough for the senior officials to decide (on the Friday evening) to increase the presence of special forces in the south, sending a specialist team trained to deal with terror squads.”
^^
“Another team from the Shin Bet operational unit and a force from the commando unit were also placed on alert. An elite IDF team from Sayeret Matkal was also dispatched to the area. However, no one in the Southern Command or its Gaza Division bothered to inform the dozens of young women serving as spotters at the Kissufim and Nahal Oz army bases of that. This did not even change at 4 A.M., when it was decided to put the Gaza border communities themselves on alert for fear of possible infiltration.”
^^
“If we had known about this warning, this whole disaster would have looked different,” Yaara tells Haaretz. “Nobody told us there was such a high level of alert.”
^^
“According to Yaara, three hours, or even two hours, would have given the young spotters time to prepare. “But nobody thought to tell us. The IDF left us like sitting ducks on a range. The fighters at least had weapons and died as heroes. The spotters who had been abandoned by the army were simply slaughtered, without any opportunity to defend themselves.”
^^
“At around 6:30 A.M., Noga still found time to report about the “infiltration” protocol for communities and military bases, all while hearing the gunfire and shouting of the terrorists outside the command center where she was stationed.”
^^
“In the spotters’ WhatsApp group, friends from Nahal Oz were already reporting that terrorists were everywhere, that people had been killed and kidnapped, and that there was nowhere to run. At 7:17 A.M., the last message was received in the group, signed by spotters from Nahal Oz: “Tell everyone that we love them and thanks for everything.”
^^
Disdainful attitude
“The spotters’ harsh words for their superiors is not a new development. In fact, Haaretz published an investigative report last year focusing on the disdainful attitude toward them from their commanders. At the time, your correspondent spoke with spotters from bases across Israel, including those in the Gaza Division.”
^^
“One of the issues they raised was that their voice was simply not being heard and that their professional opinion was not being given due weight. It seems that any commission of inquiry studying the events of October 7 will have to start with the testimonies of those surviving spotters.”

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2024.01.11-165827/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-20/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-women-soldiers-who-warned-of-a-pending-hamas-attack-and-were-ignored/0000018b-ed76-d4f0-affb-eff740150000%23" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.is/2024.01.11-165827/www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-20/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-women-soldiers-who-warned-of-a-pending-hamas-attack-and-were-ignored/0000018b-ed76-d4f0-affb-eff740150000%23

Not only did these young ‘spotters’ try to warn of the attack and were ignored, but a high up female NCO saw a whole Hamas blueprint some time before, tried to warn, and was ignored.
Guardian
“The source of the warning is a highly respected career military intelligence NCO identified in Israeli media reports as V who warned her chain of command during the summer that Hamas was planning a large-scale incursion.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/israeli-military-had-warning-of-hamas-training-for-attack-reports-say
Times of Israel
“Leaked emails show veteran intel soldier warned that terror groups were training for major assault to ‘start a war,’ but her cautions were dismissed by senior officers as ‘fantasy’”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-ended-exercise-in-mock-israeli-town-we-have-killed-everyone-on-the-kibbutz/

In fact the Haaretz article was posted on FWR at the time. But even on a feminist forum it proved / proves difficult to discuss how women on which ever sides are victimised additionally because of sexism.

Because the upper echelons of the IDF wouldn't acknowledge how thy had been ignored and left defenceless, their families have privately created a memorial for them.

Nahal Oz Observers Memorial Monument (known in Hebrew as Andartat HaTatzpitaniyot / אנדרטת התצפיתניות).

It was built on an elevated hill overlooking the Nahal Oz army outpost and the Gaza Strip. The site was established through the private initiative of the families of the fallen soldiers, volunteers, and the "Fields Instead of Fences" organization to honor the 16 young female field observers (tatzpitaniyot) who were killed while heroically defending the border during the October 7, 2023, attacks.

(This is AI generated but info on wikipedia etc..)

From 2025

From Nahal Oz to Petah Tikva’s ‘Daughters of Deborah,’ new monuments reflect Israel’s long-overdue recognition of women’s sacrifice in battle
https://www.timesofisrael.com/october-7-spurs-new-memorials-honoring-israels-fallen-female-soldiers/

Not forgetting that the current majority that Netenyahu has or had (given there is an election next week) is because 3 smaller religious parties are part of it and think women should not be allowed to enlist.

I think it is not beyond the bounds of reason to think that BN may have welcomed this war.
Not the actuality of the death and destruction of his fellow countrymen, rather any war which stoped dead the various investigations into him and his corruption.

I think he and certainly the more extreme right of his coalition have admitted this.

Many people, although obviously appalled by what happened on 7 October, did not expect all out bombing.

Its late at night so cant remember, but he (and others) had some plan in relation to creating a "Greater Israel" and this was the opportunity to put it into action.

It's worse for the female lookouts though because the other people who warned of it weren't directly in the line of danger themselves. The women warning of the attack and being ignored were also left completely exposed in many cases even without any weapons because their position didn't call for it. And were wearing a uniform which made them a "legitimate target" (I don't mean that it's OK for soldiers to be killed/tortured/assaulted just that they were dressed as combatants/the enemy in the eyes of the attackers) despite not being able to defend themselves. Plus, for the women who were killed and captured, there was an odd sort of double macho propaganda that went on where on the one hand they were disparaged online as a classic example of why women shouldn't be soldiers/are a liability and on the other hand their capture/murder as women was a propaganda point.

That wasn't the case for any of the other sources warning of an attack so there are multiple layers of ill treatment there.

I agree that, regardless of people's opinion on the wider issues what happened to those women was awful. But it gets buried in the controversies because on the one hand people more on the side of the IDF are quite resistant to any criticism of their actions/Netanyahu. And on the other side those most worried about what is happening in Gaza aren't as focused on what happened to the October 7th victims. But regardless of your position there is something quite horrifying about the position the women were left in and how avoidable it was.

Thanks @Jane3212 (OP) interesting thread. It's true that sexism exists across borders, religions, class and within ethnic identities. It is one of the (the?) broadest and oldest forms of discrimination, pervasive and deadly. I genuinely belive that womens greatest sense of identity is that which we share with other women. Because when push comes to shove, as this case demonstrates alongside countless other examples, men will prioritise men. I want to say that some individual men will prioritise some women in some circumstances but at the organisational level we see over and over again that this is not the usual case. Think the sex scandles in churches and NGOs, policy development, internal police and military investigations, sexual harassment cases, etc, etc, etc. I think often the same goes for children which women observe, which makes us the fundamental safeguarding force for them.
Dammit, we need a global revolution, do we not?

True. Well said. Its almost as if they were deliberately sacrificed 'for the greater good' which seems to align with the delayed reaction by the IDF in reacting to the massacre, their deliberate killing of hostages to prevent hostage taking & their reticence at cease fire so hostages could be returned.

Their cynical exploitation of the carnage particularly of the women to gain public sympathy whilst simultaneously throwing them to the lions is another example of how women were just pawns & not real human beings.

There were no red lines which is horrifying.

Yes, all part of the far right hyper masculinity cult. Women are just fodder. Men who support this do often have very fragile egos which supports the hsyterical rhetoric and complete avoidance of discussion (deflection, blame, outrage) on anything that might show their mistakes. Amazing how many groups of men are currently on the global stage with this frothing blueprint.

All marketed by the manosphere to indoctrinate generations of younger men.

The point? When we fight amongst each other whether it be man v woman, white v black, conservatives v progressives etc we aren't noticing elite corporatists robbing us blind of our opportunities & economic interests.

Think about who is really benefitting here by having us all at each other's throat?

Yes it’s pretty bloody obvious why Trump and Netanyahu (and increasingly Putin) are so close - talk about birds of a feather 😡

The women warning of the attack and being ignored were also left completely exposed in many cases even without any weapons because their position didn't call for it. And were wearing a uniform which made them a "legitimate target" (I don't mean that it's OK for soldiers to be killed/tortured/assaulted just that they were dressed as combatants/the enemy in the eyes of the attackers) despite not being able to defend themselves. Plus, for the women who were killed and captured, there was an odd sort of double macho propaganda that went on where on the one hand they were disparaged online as a classic example of why women shouldn't be soldiers/are a liability and on the other hand their capture/murder as women was a propaganda point.

Absolutely, everything you say here is true.

There were hours following warnings in which back-up and arms could have been given to them but weren’t.

Afterwards, the very upsetting Hamas videos of them were exploited to the full.

What was horrific too was how the survivors, suffering from ptsd, were bullied and harassed to return back to their posts as if nothing had happened.

It's not an isolated incident. There was this in August that was reported by the Israeli press.

IDF says Gaza mission was canceled after religious soldiers refused to work with female paramedic | The Times of Israel

The bulk of israeli public is not 'far right leaning'.

Whether or not Netanyahu ignored warnings, and if so, why has yet to be ascertained.

Didn't they vote for him and the IDF?

Please can we not get into a wider political debate. There's a whole board for that. Not here.

So do we think the fact the party is far right has nothing to do with their use of women?