Parkrun comments giving me the rage

[ChapmanFarm]

If I have to read one more time 'but parkrun is just meant to be fun' or 'you are only racing against yourself and your best time' I'm going to scream.

Why does that only apply to women?

If it's just a bit of fun there is absolutely no need for trans identified men to get a time or position either. They have the option to register as another gender or to just run and not register at all.

If it's all just fun and we moaning women should shut up, why do these arguments only apply one way?

No one is saying they can't run in whatever clothing/identity they like. Just that they shouldn't be recorded as women.

But somehow this is still wrong.

I thought I'd peaked long ago but this one is giving me the absolute rage.

But the Supreme Court judgement was clear that words that are an obvious proxy for sex are not a way to get around the meaning of the law.

Why can’t they ask people what sex they are? And be clear it means actual sex, or sex at birth.

And leave the “prefer not to say” option first those who don’t want their sex known or their data stored.

Agree with all of that. But parkrun is different and uniquely I think gender, as a meaningless term, works well for parkrun for all the reasons I've described in this thread. (Not least that since it's not enforced a meaningless term totally avoids any demand for enforcement.)

In practice it works fine, and if Parkrun decide to change it they will simply remove it because removing it keeps both sides happy. And I will miss it.

A case where perfect is the enemy of good.

Right, and in the case of trans people with a gender recognition certificate, this would change nothing. You can't force people to disclose their sex at birth.

Men are not in the same position.

If I accidentally “get my sex wrong” (how????) and claim to be male, I am not going to come near the performance of the leading men. It will not affect male rankings at all, except perhaps at the very very lowest end of very old men. Or under 10 boys or similar.

Whereas unfit men can still beat very fit women. And so can affect the rankings if they claim to be female.

Why can’t they ask people what sex they are? And be clear it means actual sex, or sex at birth.

1. That will piss the other side off so won't make everyone happy. It would be easier to remove the feature IMHO than change it.

2. You can't lie about gender because it means nothing so gender requires no enforcement. I doubt sex would be enforced either but people could demand enforcement and that just leads to more arguments.

IMHO the best option is let sleeping dogs lie. We'll miss it when it's gone.

How do you count Chris or Alex or Sam? Do you put them in the male category the female category or take turns?

I'm glad you "lovely" transfer friend is lovely but they aren't my lovely friend they are a strange male and by humouring him that his 'is' a woman in parkrun you are encouraging him to believe he could be a woman in other circumstances too.
Groover thinks it's OK for to access the woman category so she probably won't mind if I us the ladies loo. It the thin end of the wedge. If you tell men they can be women sometimes it is much harder to tell them they can't be women in other places.

They are. In your example I was replying to you said the woman's place could potentially be wrong by 2. In that situation a man's place would also be wrong by two. If someone is in the "wrong" category that effects both categories.

I agree it would suck, because names are a far worse proxy for sex than gender. That's the point I'm making.

As chance would have it I do have trans women friends (well, colleagues). But they aren't lovely. Or women. So I think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

You haven’t understood what the supreme court ruling said. They thoroughly considered “actual sex” vs “certificated sex” and where it was important to use “actual sex”. A GRC doesn’t change your actual birth sex.

I agree that you can’t force people to disclose, and also that some trans people will lie. And that checking birth certificates is more than can reasonably be expected .

But it would be nice to have it acknowledged that “actual sex” is what is pertinent when it comes to physical sporting potential. And for Parkrun to indicate that it is their intention to coll XY sex data for this reason. But they currently encourage people to self-select the sex they would prefer to be.

I can see why-the backlash and violence from TRA organisations can be nasty, and it is much less hassle to “be kind” and do a fudge that makes things a bit worse for women. Who don’t threaten violence and tend to just suck it up.

The men at Parkrun would not do the same. If there was some new type of superhuman that performed better than human males, but was allowed to claim to be a human male on the entry form, the men would lose their shit over it.

More male people take part in parkrun than female people. Its about a 60/40 split.

If a % of people identify as the opposite sex, there will be more men in the womens category than women in the mens.

Also, men are, on average faster than women, so those men will be higher up the rankings than the women in the mens category.

But it would be nice to have it acknowledged that “actual sex” is what is pertinent when it comes to physical sporting potential.

That battle has already been won.

.But they currently encourage people to self-select the sex they would prefer to be.

No they don't. They encourage people to select whatever gender they want which is fine because gender means nothing. As soon as you make it sex, they will be able to select the sex they would prefer to be. Use of gender prevents that.

The NHS has multiple online forms that ask for sex at birth. There’s a pop up that explains why they ask for that. Nothing stops Parkrun doing something similar. They don’t want to, but let’s not pretend there are masses of logistical or legal reasons why they can’t.

Changing to sex would just piss off a different group of people.

The NHS need to know your sex. Parkrun don't. All it does is allow them to provide gender positions. If they make a change it will simply be to remove gender positions. That keeps everyone happy, except actual competitors. But nobody seems to care about us.

If Parkrun asked for sex then you’d be provided with ‘sex positions’ rather than ‘gender positions’, which are irrelevant in sport. (Will nobody think of the enbies).

I think you present a false dichotomy. Parkrun's choices aren't the status quo vs scrapping sex/gender data altogether (which you rightly say would annoy many female runners).

When I signed up the gender options were male & female. "Gender" here was clearly a synonym for sex. Now the options include, male, female and "another gender identity", so if they shifted their data from sex to gender identity, they can shift it back.

I think you present a false dichotomy. Parkrun's choices aren't the status quo vs scrapping sex/gender data altogether

I've listed 6 other features that have been removed to keep both sides happy. I see no reason why they'd endure angst to save a 7th. They just want to hold fun runs. they aren't looking to prove a point, they will want to placate both sides and that means ditch it. If it was my responsibility that's what I do.

I'd be interested in hearing if they ever used sex.

You can’t force them but you can change the category to sex instead of gender and tell
people it’s not compulsory to record their sex but if they choose to it must be sex at birth.

This is the only way to make it fair for women.

I understand that it’s not easy to enforce in a parkrun situation, but neither is age. “Gender” is also impossible to enforce so what’s the problem with changing it to sex?

But they are using Male and Female on the drop down.

Those are sex words, quite clear in meaning. They are factual words. They have the same meaning for animals and plants as well. They are not gender identities. Parkrun has muddled up sex and gender identity in one question. This why it is a mess. It is not clear, it is as bad as the census questions that the ONS had to row back on.

It is remarkable how many people simply don’t believe that people will answer honestly.

If there are so few male people participating in the female category, how many would not be truthful or choose the ‘prefer not to say’ option if the policy changed?

Doesn't matter if only 1 man runs as a woman and comes 186th - he knocks the woman who should be 186th and every other woman below him's results out. They matter just as much as those in the top 3.

If it's all so inconsequential then TW can register as men, or prefer not to say, can't they?

You only have to look at the amount of men that are OK with breaking the toilets guidance (and therefore the law) to see how any change is as the trans lobby puts it 'unworkable'.

And the sad thing is that the trans lobby can't or won't understand why a man saying no to a woman is a concern.

Doesn't matter if only 1 man runs as a woman and comes 186th - he knocks the woman who should be 186th and every other woman below him's results out. They matter just as much as those in the top 3.

It knocks the men's out by one as well.

”It knocks the men's out by one as well.”

So what. Them knocking male people down a ranking is fair competition, just as it would happen if that male person ran in the male category.

But he didn’t, he ran in the female category.

Just because the overall timing was correct, does not justify in any way that male person running in the female category. If there is a category for female people, it needs to be protected by policy. It is currently not protected at all.

Agree. Any person who seeks to ignore female people’s withdrawal of consent is acting in a way that highlights just how little consent from female people means to them. Even female people who do consent knowing other female people don’t but acting in a way that ignores those female people who don’t consent seem to grasp desperately at excuses while doing so.