Great piece on women’s loos on Broadcasting House

[WarriorN]

Queues for women’s loos
About 9:30 / half an hour in.

(have to listen to pigs eating apples first 🤣)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0030x69?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Thanks!
I’ll have a listen

Well, not totally sure about the product being discussed but the interviews with festival goers and the woman interviewed was really good.

She womaned ALL over the place

https://www.peequal.com/ no mention of women on the peequal website.

but I’m glad they discussed the issues women face, women’s toilets, architecture, 2-3 times the amount of loos needed for women.

Festival goers also mentioned the basic fact that women have different toileting needs

They’re basically what I think of as European hole-in-the-ground toilets but with grab handles and I don’t think I’d be that keen to use one tbh. I think the main problems would be getting pants and trousers out of the way - you can’t always direct the stream!, the bottoms of trousers dangling on the floor, splashing onto your legs, and you still need to wipe afterwards. Being able to maintain eye contact with those around you would be quite the cultural shift for women too!

I can see that a female equivalent of a urinal would be great but anatomy doesn’t agree.

A good report though.

Thanks for this @WarriorN .

This has been talked about for decades. Women need more toilets for their biological needs. Every planner should know it’s two female units to every male. For shortening queues, as well as health, the washbasins should be in a different area. It didn’t mention washbasins or loo paper or if, when squatting, other needs suddenly become apparent. The nitty gritty.

The obvious solution is for the festival to only get a licence if it provides more toilets for women. It costs a fortune to go to these festivals and it’s discrimination to have to miss what you have paid for because a basic necessity has not be calculated correctly for females.

Yes, when I research how women used to go before the flush toilet, I realise why it’s easier for women to wear skirts and dresses rather than trousers.

I have never understood why trousers are supposed to be more convenient - unless climbing ladders or mountains, of course. I suspect that some/lots of men do not understand that women must partially undress to urinate. I also suspect (this is from reading about trans, I'm afraid) that some men think women urinate through the clitoris.

They keep your legs warm without having to have a very long skirt or wear tights or long socks, you don’t have to worry about flashing your pants when sitting down or if you fall over, you can break into a run or climb over a fence or step up onto a chair without having to wear a very loose skirt or have to hoik it up, they don’t accidentally get stuck in your pants after you’ve been to the toilet, and, trousers generally have pockets. I can’t think of many situations where a skirt would be more convenient than trousers.

Absolutely. I once made myself an Austrian tracht outfit - possibly the most practical thing I've ever worn. Complete freedom of movement in a giant skirt, a practical apron, no uncomfortable bra. And the giant skirt created it's own microenvironment keeping you cool.

It also had massive pockets.

Felt I'd been lied to for decades about women wearing trousers as they were 'more practical'.

Think of life before the flush toilet and tampons/pads. Changing rags would be easier in a skirt too.

It reminds me of this story from https://historyofparliament.com/2024/01/16/the-smallest-room-the-house/ :

Comments in a letter from a Member in 1743: “some Gentlewomen in our gallery, not being able to hold their water, let it run on Mr Dodington, and a Scots member who sat under. The first had a white duffel frock spoiled, the latter almost blinded” (Thomas, House of Commons in the Eighteenth Century, 148-9.) Presumably more likely to be a mere accident than an act of feminist subversion, this anecdote is more plausible than it may sound. In 18th– and 19th-century London there was an almost total absence of public lavatories for women; women would have been forced to rely on bourdaloues (the female equivalent of a chamber pot) or hold on until they reached home.

Perhaps handing out bourdaloues are better than the festival design?! Certainly less likely to get feet wet.

Trousers also prevent hot-weather thigh chafe.

So do bloomers.

I’ve returned to long johns and a breezy dress. So much cooler than anything fitted at the waist.

OK, I've watched the video. No.

It's not 'touch free' if there are grab handles, and you still have to wipe. Holding up a skirt while holding the grab handles would be near impossible. Risk of trouser/underwear splash is likely to be non-zero. Even with a grab handle it must require more thigh/hip strength- and more grip strength - than the sit down variety, so is less accessible. Theres no way I'd attempt a mooncup, tampon, or even a pad change in one. And visibility to men, who know what you're doing even if they can't see it, is an absolute line. Especially given what we know from this board about fetishes.

The REALLY obvious solution would be to make that a general requirement, not just for festivals. Exactly what many US states (even Texas, that paragon of progressivism!) have done with their so-called Potty Parity Laws, except 30 years later.

The trousers thing is only something I’ve recently considered. I used to have no problems peeing outdoors (obviously a rural area, no toilets available, etc), and wondered why people made a big deal out of it. I’ve only started wearing trousers a few months ago and now I understand!! It’s an absolute pain, even just a normal public toilet, unless you’re wearing tightly cuffed around the ankle trousers, how do you stop them touching the manky floor?!

I’m definitely going back to skirts and dresses for outdoor pursuits and save trousers for the office!

Until Victorian times most women wore detachable pockets which tied round the waist under the skirt. This would probably be the type of pocket Lucy Locket lost! To access the contents skirts were made with slits in the side seam. It gave security for carrying valuables, particularly for servants who had no safe place to leave their few precious belongings. So someone needing to securely hitch up her skirts just needed to pull the hem up through the slits.

Shame they disappeared from women's clothing!

I used a peequal at a festival, it was great, much better than the toilets which were horrific, and the queues were very short. Both were available so if you were doing anything other than a quick wee, you could just close your eyes, hold your breath and use the sawdust toilets.

The only problem was at one point I was using it and a man walked in (probably drunk, possibly a pervert) and stood up using the one next to me, which meant he could look into the cubicles either side. I wasn’t very happy about that and complained to security who went looking for him.

I think they are fair alternative at something like a festival where the standard toilet is already just awful. They were behind big barriers so not visible, same as the men’s urinals.

I think the peequals will work but only if the partitions are head height. I think the ones at the Electric Picnic were low enough to see womens' heads, is that right? Nope, I wouldn't fancy that at all, but higher, yep I'd chance it. Mind you if I was absolutely bursting I'd go in a ditch!

I have used them before London marathon and it is clear when queuing that you can only use for a wee and you can’t change san pro in there, you also can’t wipe. Tbh I quite liked it for a last minute nervous wee before running the marathon but I did also need to use the proper toilets beforehand.
Your head does stick out over the top but the way they are designed you wouldn’t be able to see anything. They would not be suitable for anybody with mobility issues.

I am all for squat toilets. Part of the reason westerners have so many back, hip and knee problems is we've forgotten how to squat. Agree in the 2 for one toilet cubicle as a pre-requisite for a licence though. At an expensive Pulp gig at the O2 last year I missed my favourite song due to queuing for the toilet.

If you can't wipe, what do you do about .... run off?

I had a huge margarine tub in my tent at one festival in the 90s for emergency early morning wees 😁

Also once had to use Tupperware when stuck in an absolutely epic traffic jam, and driving. (Thankfully long periods of sitting still!)

I’m not sure about those particular loos but I agree that squatting over holes in the ground is a useful skill and also keeps cultures who do it very flexible and strong.

There was an advert on my Facebook feed for walking trousers with a zip opening through the crotch (from front to back.) might need a bit of work to get right but a promising idea I thought.