Ireland: Gender Identity In School Curriculum and Belong To Quality Mark in Irish Schools.

[FanOfGailDines]

https://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/95f491aa-1038-4c91-9e52-5e435b6a7618/Relationships-and-Sexuality-Education-1-Unit-of-learning.pdf

I would really appreciate views from parents in Ireland about this. I find it very strange that this Gender Identity is taught as a fact rather than an idea and that it takes such a central position in the Junior Cycle RSE.

After an internet safety talk at my children's primary school 18 months ago I found out that it wasn't if but when my children saw pornography in today's world. This came as a big shock.
I have attempted since then to not only try to get myself well-informed about what I can do about this for my family but also within the local schools, wider community etc. I now find, that many of the organisations I have been recommending in relation to the harms of porn and the damage of a culture that sexualises children, I find that many of those same bodies are all signed up to Gender Ideology and see it as an important part of sex education.

So I am in the very weird predicament of not wanting my children to be part of some of the sex ed programme which I have been advocating for. I have only found out about all of this in the last couple of months and actually feel quite foolish now I have found out about all the Gender stuff. It started after picking up Helen Joyce's book on Trans in the library quite by chance because it relates some of the culture things I was interested in (many cross-dressing, drag queen themed and trans references in sexualising culture that are the everyday stuff of kids in Ireland like Katseye and Chappell Roan).

I read the Trans book and was pretty alarmed by what I found out there. ASD kids and children who would be same-sex attracted being taken down this track for example. Planting an idea, 'you feel different? this might be why.' The social contagion element amongst girls. The connection with eating disorders. The list goes on. The large numbers of kids with really difficult childhoods from places like Blackpool in UK that were being sent to the GIDS. I remember being 13 and how difficult and confusing it was without all this.

Why are Belong To Quality Mark's for schools being rolled out in Ireland in an unquestioning way with so much evidence for a need for caution?
The Cass Review said that social transition was not a 'neutral act'. Why is gender identity then being taught as fact in Irish Secondary Schools? Would it be possible for my children to question gender identity in school in Ireland without being seen as prejudiced?

I’m not in Ireland but have spoken to teen relatives there to understand their experiences. They gasp when I openly express the view that you can’t change sex and definitely seem to feel I am saying the unsayable, which no longer feels the case in the uk. However once we start talking about it all, they cautiously agree. It definitely seems that they are expected to go along with this as fact. Have you come across The Countess? To my knowledge there are women’s groups in Ireland chipping away, you could seek their advice?

I’m also a parent in Ireland.

The activist NGOs have the government in an absolute choke hold - it’s utterly disgraceful.

They’re pretending Cass didn’t happen (almost zero media coverage). They’re walking right into this, eyes wide shut, at exactly the time when other countries are backing off. A bunch of knaves and fools.

The only saving grace is the school ethos itself. You can bet the strict catholic schools will pay no more than minimal lip service to this. Educate together, on the other hand are all in. 🙄

My own children’s school have handled it well thus far. It’s Church of Ireland (for info).

A girl in my son’s class declared herself non binary and wanted they/them pronouns. School didn’t contradict, but gave it zero oxygen and it petered out v quickly as you would expect. My child (now aged 12) tells me that they all know Lara (not her real name) is a girl who got confused, but she’s fine now.

As this is rolled out, the situation may get more difficult. But this ideology can’t stand up to any scrutiny and ordinary Irish people will not buy into such bullshit. The more exposure it gets, the greater the pushback.

Interesting times ahead 😵‍💫

Thanks for raising this issue. I don’t have much knowledge of it and need to have a read of it properly.
I have a secondary and two primary school aged children in single sex Catholic schools in Ireland.

All three kids go to single sexed school but I remember a in 2024 we went for an open day in a church of Ireland mixed private school. After a tour by the girl, we were about to leave, thanked the girl and teacher. Teacher thanked the girl by name calling her John (name changed but one of those boy names without girl versions/nicknames). I told my son what a strange name for a girl and he responded that she is a boy. Because the boys wear blue shirts and the girls wear red shirts. And yes she was wearing a blue shirt and dressed like the boys.
I remember when she was speaking to us something felt off but I couldn’t place it, I realised it was my brain thinking she’s a girl but she’s doesn’t look or fit a girl but she looks like a girl (I still cannot explain it).

Same child was at a summer camp a few years ago and said there was a boy that said he’s a girl. My very non pc response was that’s not possible and don’t worry about him, you won’t see him again after this camp. Saw same child this year and he’s a full fledged 14 year old boy, no girl traits to be seen.
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My children (11 and 13 year old) understand that a man cannot be a woman and vice versa.

I have come across this at work as well, especially among younger colleagues under 35. Eta I am 40 if that makes any difference to my comment 😂

At least it gives a definition of gender, which looks OK:
Gender refers to “the socially constructed characteristics ascribed to women or to men, such as norms, roles, attributes, and relationships between groups of women and men and girls and boys. These characteristics are learned through socialization processes "

It uses this definition in discussions of gender stereotyping, which look sensible enough.

I did a simple word search of that document.
'Gender' appears 140 times, BUT it is not always associated with gender/trans ideology, it is also used the way I would use it to critique 'gender stereotypes'.

Overall, apart from not agreeing with what it says, the scope of the curriculum is over the top, with a whole section on 'Transgender', and goes into a ridiculous amount of detail about the 'in-words' for various aspects of gender ID - do school students really have to know the difference between a cross-dresser and a drag queen??

Given the number of trans people in society, it is completely disproportionate to devote so much time to one aspect of gender identity. They could have pruned the curriculum down massively in this area.

However, the definition of 'transgender'
Transgender refers to people with a gender identity that is different to the gender associated with their sex at birth.
seems to me to be on the neutral side: there's no suggestion that trans people have or can actually change their sex, and it's really saying that trans people are males and females who reject.. what was that definition of gender again?
'“the socially constructed characteristics ascribed to women or to men'.

And it goes into great and [literally] graphic detail about the male and female reproductive systems, so there's no blurring of lines between sex and gender in that part of the document!
It also defines lesbian and gay people correctly in terms of sexual orientation rather than gender ID.

I think the most pragmatic objection to make to this is that it devotes a disproportionate amount of time to a very small group in society - transpeople - and goes into a totally unnecessary amount of detail regarding the terminology used within and by that tiny minority of people - for instance, 'cisgender' is a made-up word that has no relevance or validity outside the trans community.

I feel great sympathy for teachers having to teach this material - does this level of detail about human relationships and the social context they happen in belong in schools at all?

Wouldn't the be better spent teaching more broadly about choice and consent and respect and standing up for yourself and having the self-confidence to say a strong no or or an informed yes? To whoever they are and however they and you 'identify'?
Minus the fads, fashions, jargon and in-words.

useful link, though from 2023
Women's Space Ireland
Gender ideology in Irish education

So it sounds like there will be lots of schools that won't be actually teaching this stuff but that can't say that openly. The question then becomes how do you find out when you can't ask directly?

A question to the school could be something like: We don't believe this. We think this is harmful material to teach as evidenced by the Cass Review. Should we send our child here?

Or there could be a code such as: ' I love J K Rowling.' wink, wink. 'Do you love her work too?'

A question that could indicate the schools position without getting them liable for some kind of prosecution or time-wasting drama.

Feels a bit like a communist state but run by pretend communists. I don't know what the analogy is but whatever it is it is all a bit bizarre.

I would ask to see the materials for what’s going to be covered in SPHE and take it from there.

If aspects are problematic, then follow up with your (well evidenced) concerns.

It is worrying. You’re between a rock and a hard place really if you’re not religious as the ones less likely to focus on this are the more religious schools. Educate together is totally captured. I have friends with a dd in an educate together secondary school (loads of trans kids). The dd previously went to an all girls reasonably religious secondary school (they moved to a different part of the country) and eating disorders were rampant.

I see someone upthread mentioned The Countess. They used to be great and you will possibly find useful information on their website but I cut all connections with them when they expanded into anti-immigrant campaigning. I couldn’t be associated with the racism associated with it.

Irish law generally uses gender rather than sex to refer to biology, so it all gets messy about whats actually being referred to. And I agree the Countness was very useful, but is just racist now, and that the Catholic schools are good at managing this without too many issues. The ETs though are a different kettle of fish.
But the fashion is passing, DD had a few trans kids in her year at secondary (all in sex appropriate changing, and none did PE or sport anyway). 4 years on and younger DC class has no trans kids and thinks the older ones are "werid".

Fadó fadó - once upon a time, Irish law used to use the word 'sex' in a very clear way, e.g. the 1998 Employment Equality Act.
PART III
Specific Provisions as to Equality Between Women and Men
Introductory
Application of equality principles to both men and women.
18.—(1) For the purposes of this Part, “A” and “B” represent 2 persons of opposite sex so that, where “A” is a woman, “B” is a man, and vice versa.
Employment Equality Act, 1998

By the Equal Status Act in 2000, the world 'gender' is being used as a synonym for sex
(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:
(a) that one is male and the other is female (the “gender ground”),
Equal Status Act, 2000

After that, it all went to hell in a handcart and 'gender' meant whatever it needed to mean to deprive women of our specific rights, and introduce a 'legal fiction' whereby men could declare themselves to be women, and vice versa
Gender Recognition Act 2015.

It would take something like FWS/UK Supreme Court to untangle it all. I don't see that happening in Ireland, unfortunately.

I agree with previous posters about The Countess - they decided to wade into the immigration debate, although there's no shortage of other groups ready and willing to deal with that issue, and only a small number ready and willing to focus specifically on women.

Women's Space Ireland is a very informative site; I don't know much about it, it's a bit anonymous, I get the impression that it acts as a 'warehouse' for contributions, rather than run by a campaigning grouping as The Countess is.

Much and all as I admire Constance Gore-Booth Markievicz, I always thought it was odd to use a title of nobility [a European and questionable one at that😏] as the name of a women's campaigning group.

They could have called it 'Eva' instead, after Constance's sister, who was a feminist, a lesbian, and a labour activist

edited to clarify that Irish law used to used the word sex, and not sex...

Thanks so much for all the information. It is really helpful. I just wish I had properly clocked this earlier.

I can just take the kids out of those classes when they get there but I really don't like the idea of them not being able to speak their mind in a reasonable and respectful way within a school.

The idea that I have to say, I don't want you to do these classes that are part of the curriculum because there is growing evidence that they are supporting young people in harming themselves and radicalising young people. By telling my children that I am telling them not to trust what their teachers tell them, not to trust what they are learning, to be wary of their friends. I am probably overstating it but this is more than I just don't like this material, it is unnerving that evidence of harm is being ignored. And that there isn't more of a fuss in Ireland! If so many people think this it is baloney then why is it sitting there in school documents? Why are children watching propaganda films?

Thanks again for the helpful info. I will carry on trying to get my head around all of this.

Honestly, most people don’t have a clue of the extent of it.

It’s been completely suppressed by our mainstream media for starters.

It’s only when it affects people directly that they actually get it.

But I totally understand (and agree) about the shock when you realise that those in power don’t actually have children’s interests at heart. I don’t feel as much surprise as I might, as I felt something similar was happening (on a much milder level) during Covid.

Its all deeply disillusioning.

'Deeply Disillusioning' are excellent words to describe the quiescence.

Any ideas for how to get parents, teachers, voters, newspapers in Ireland interested and doing something?

There are a few journalists who have been 'gender critical' if I can use that shorthand all along, but they tend to be a bit contrarian in general and can be pigeonholed as 'that's just them being them'.

Short, to-the-point messages to public representatives, TDs etc., will eventually add up to a realisation that the general public have issues with 'genderwoo'.

I think a very short email will get more attention than a long one full of detail - just asking has the TD seen the Junior Cycle RSE curriculum, and do they agree that it devotes a disproportionate amount of time - a whole section on 'gender identity', in addition to sections on 'gender stereotyping' and 'sexual orientation' -
to one very minor aspect of RSE- transgenderism- which affects only a very small number of people in society?

I honestly think - I've been mulling it over since I read the OP - that tactically the best approach is to 'de-ideologise' it and object to it on very pragmatic grounds e.g:

proportionality

• while there are transgender people in Ireland as everywhere else, they are a tiny proportion of the overall population, probably under 1%, so why are they given so much prominence in the curriculum?

lack of permanence

• the concept of 'transitioning' appears to be of the many fads that young people pick up from Social Media, not all of which are positive for their mental or physical well-being, and the educational system shouldn't give so much oxygen to one thing that is popular now, but will probably be replaced by something new on SM soon.

factual accuracy

• any attempt to teach anything other than the provable scientific fact that, [as this Curriculum clearly teaches, there are only two sexes], or that 'sex is a spectrum' or 'transwomen are women/transmen are men' would be totally unacceptable for no reason other than that it is factually incorrect.

reliability of advisers and contributors
it is not a good idea to take advice/contributions from campaigning groups and organisations who cannot be relied upon to provide objective, balanced, responsibly-sourced information. Relying on teaching materials produced by such groups is unwise. Relying solely on teaching material from groups such as BelongTo is completely unacceptable.

Thanks so much. Sound advice. Particularly the keeping it simple!

It would be interesting to hear from parents where the school has signed up to BelongTo Quality Mark and if this has had any noticeable changes in what children are being taught and also the numbers of kids identifying as trans within the school.

I do also think listening to something like Julie in Genderland podcast Episode 7 -- Bad Education. That could help someone to understand where this all leads.

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Sorry. couldn't upload the Julie Bindle podcast on YouTube

https://open.spotify.com/show/5XK1wTA4PTgvwLvDZcKwP9

Another good site to reference is Transgender Trend

or the Abigail Shrier being interviewed on Gender: A Wider Lens with Stella O'Malley.

But as you say, simple simple... I'm already trying to add to much info!!

Spelling mistake correction: 'Too much' not 'to much'.