A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

Yep. It’s really that simple.

I am not a fundamentalist. I form conclusions based on the available evidence. For me to reconsider my position I would need to see robust and reproducible studies that demonstrate:

1. Medical interventions that cause reproductive organs to change the type of gamete they produce (e.g. they change from producing sperm to producing ovum).
2. Medical interventions that show that the effects/advantages of male puberty (height, weight, muscle mass, strength, lung capacity, bone density, etc.) are 100% reversible.
3. Statistics that show that offending rates (specially violent offenses and sexual offenses) for people who were originally male have decreased and are not significantly different from female offending rates.

Tandora is there any contrary evidence that would make you reconsider your position and if so what is it, please?

This has been pointed out to Tandora for several years now. The answer is that Tandora has the criteria to tell us who is and isn’t transgender. If the person doesn’t meet the criteria, they are dismissed as not being transgender. I kid you not. But apparently, doing that is not transphobic. I have always assumed it is because true believer status protects from that labelling.

I view him as a predatory man.

'Yet you act like it's too much to expect DU to realize that others view him as a man and adjust his behavior.'

Yes, I believe it absolutely is too much in many cases, because of the profound distress that results from this.

But what about the profound distress caused to women by DU refusing to accept that others see DU as a man?

This is the heart of the issue - you are prioritising preventing distress to men with dysphoria over preventing distress to women.

As you will see from this thread this is under intense dispute, with most posters absolutely refusing to believe that this is possible.

@GenderlessVoid see posts below that last one. That is why I started this thread. How can we have a reasonable and just conversation about how rights should be balanced when the pps refuse to accept what being trans is?

This.

But what about the profound distress caused to women by DU refusing to accept that others see DU as a man?

I don't accept that recognising and accepting the realty/ validity of a trans woman's experience causes women at large 'profound distress'. If you were DU's mother I might cut you a bit of slack there. Otherwise - nope.

Do @Tandora please explain how a male “knows” he is female? What frame of reference is he using? How does he know he’s a woman and not a cat? I mean, if we can’t define woman and men and male and female, how can he know he’s is a woman and female? To know you are something, you must be able to define it. Otherwise you get the batshittery we have seen in this thread.

How to you propose to balance the rights of distressed dysphoric men against distressed women?

One way to do it would be to count numbers. Several hundred women using a public toilet vs a small handful of dysphoric men, so the women get the final say.

Another way would be to ignore the distress and simply rule according to biology - no male bodies in toilets meant for female bodies.

Do you have any proposals?

But plenty of people on this thread (including me) have said ok, say we accept that Dr Upton or any trans person knows or believes themselves to be the opposite sex to the one their physical body implies, the question is, how do you balance their distress with that of women who perceive them based on their external, visible characteristics which are male? And you never answer.

In what sense has he “transitioned” @Tandora and what does this mean? Do you just mean he calls himself a woman?

What about my profound distress when I encounter a man in a women's loo, women's changing room, etc?

I do have a basis bc I have read many reactions to DU in the Sandy Peggy trial. Most of those who express an opinion view DU as a man. In polls, most people in the UK do not want transwomen in women's spaces. If they viewed transwomen as women, why would they care?

I have known many transwomen (and seen far more). IME only maybe 1 percent pass and I suspect that most of them would not pass in a prolonged encounter. Yet almost all of them say - and seem to believe - they pass.

I agree that some people view DU as a woman but you agree that some view DU as a man. Why doesn't DU need to change to account for their views, esp in a professional setting? IMO consent demands that DU ascertain that DU's patients are willing to have a transwoman as their doctor, esp if the person has requested a woman or if it involves intimate care. Consent must be informed.

I don't accept that recognising and accepting the realty/ validity of a trans woman's experience causes women at large 'profound distress'.

It is not the "accepting the reality of trans women" that causes women distress.

It is unexpectedly finding male bodies in what is supposed to be a female only space. Yes, it does cause vast numbers of women a great deal of distress.

I’ve absolutely accepted that Dr Upton believes Dr Upton is a woman.

However, were Dr Upton to turn up when I had asked for a female clinician and attempt to have a furtle in my fanny, Dr Upton would cause me immense distress.

My refusal to allow Dr Upton to furtle in my fanny would cause Dr Upton immense distress.

How do you square that circle and whose rights take precedence?

I stand corrected, you do answer and the answer is "those women's distress doesn't matter because I think they're they're wrong".

Of course you don’t accept women’s distress as a real thing. But you’ll happily accept a men’s distress at people refusing to go along with his self vision. Why? Why is it ok for a woman to suffer profound distress from having to share spaces with males but not ok for the man to suffer profound distress from being denied entry to those spaces? Why are you so invested in trying to bully women into admitting men into female single sex spaces? I think you lost all credibility when you said no one can “know” if anyone is a male or a fender and they words have no concrete meanings.

Tandora has said he does not believe the distress of women to be real, and therefore should not be taken into account.

I missed the post where Tandora said that - was it on this thread? what page?

Social science would explain the lack of any interest in the psychologist.

On the one side a clinician who wants to help people, particularly young people, suffering from an anxiety disorder to understand that their bodies are not 'wrong' and that they can live well and be happy without doing violence to themselves.

On the other side people heavily invested in carrying on a social experiment without caring about the devastation caused to individuals.

Milling around in the middle, distressed people, young same-sex attracted people, autistic people, victims of abuse, and opportunists who have spotted a handy bandwagon. And medics and pharma companies making money.

I don't accept that recognising and accepting the realty/ validity of a trans woman's experience causes women at large 'profound distress'. If you were DU's mother I might cut you a bit of slack there. Otherwise - nope. @Tandora said this further up the page.

Yes, Tan [not a trans person] doing it is not transphobic, but myself and other parents belief that our children were not transgender, that they were instead troubled/ autistic/ anxious&depressed/ isolated/ traumatised DID make us transphobic, per regular reports to social services et al by well meaning people like Tan.

It’s a joy to see my DD settled at uni, cuddly replicas of her dogs on her bed while she languishes with freshers flu, to note the self-harming scars are fading and the inclusive, non-judgmental nature of her fellow students means she is finally at peace. I thank god every day that my DH and wider family trusted and supported me in holding the line and preventing surgical and medical interventions. Even people deeply embedded in the community (I have friends in Brighton and several universities) report that many of the large cohort of young women who had mastectomies and took T deeply regret it now. Many cheered on to do this by older trans women who had no intention of undergoing the equivalent surgical interventions.

In time, my daughter’s scars will fade, but I hope by the time she graduates she will appreciate herself for precisely who she is. A clever, talented young person. A loyal friend. A sensitive and vulnerable soul. But with her beautiful, healthy body intact and any blemishes just a reminder of the struggle she had to grow into her skin. If my being a ‘transphobe’ has facilitate that, I’ll buy the teeshirt and wave the flag.

The Righteous, whose Big Idea is apparently to Believe Sad People's Distress, are massive fraudulent hypocrites. Because it's not about Being Kind to Distressed People at all. It's about power over, and punishment of, Wrong Thinkers.

Why do you believe DU but not the women here who say that encountering a transwoman in women's spaces causes them profound distress? Why is DU'sword more trustworthy or important than ours?

Encountering a man, including a transwomen, in a women's loo or changing room does cause me profound distress. I get flashbacks, including physical pain, terror, and reliving abuse that can last anywhere from hours to weeks. Why doesn't that count as much as DU's gender dysphoria? Others in this thread have described similar distress. Why doesn't that count for you?

Always reminds me somewhat of how slave owners talked about slaves not having feelings or sensibilities like their betters, which meant you didn't need to worry or take it into account.