A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

Ok well -

On the one hand this is a philosophical argument about the semantic meaning of the word 'knowing'.

On the other hand you saying 'Dr Upton can't know something that isn't true' requires us to agree what is 'true'.

The problem is that we don't.

Whatever words we use - the issue here is that people keep making the statement:
"Dr Upton knows he is male" - a claim about Dr Upton's subjective 'knowing' of self.

This claim is empirically false.

Dr Upton's subjective 'knowing' of self tells her that she is female.

This is the reality of her cognitive experience - despite the fact that she was registered male at birth and her body has physical characteristics that are usually associated with being male.

This is what it is to be a trans woman.

You may say that Dr Upton's cognitive experience of self is 'wrong', 'false', 'deluded', 'stupid', 'mentally ill', etc. I disagree that those labels have any utility. But regardless, the point is that it is what it is. This is the reality of what it is to be trans.

Oh, we're back to words (when used by The Wrong Sort of People) having no meaning.

#OperationLetThemSpeak

Ok. You do you. We'll keep on fighting for the rights, safety and protection of women and girls.

If you were genuinely trying to educate people on what it means to be trans and how society should deal with it you would engage with and answer some really simple questions. It's clear you've got no intentions of doing that.

There's disregarding a child's feelings and then there's safeguarding fails. I expect you covered those too.

The cycle is inevitable. Many of us have learned from direct experience.

Well if Doctor Upton knew the person had a uterus and there was evidence the person was pregnant, she would respond as per the NHS protocols for pregnant people about to go into labour/ have a miscarriage.

The problem is that we don't (know what sex Dr. Upton is)

Don't we?
You might not know, Tandora, but everyone else on this thread does.

He's a bloke.
A man.
Born a man.
Still a man.
Will die a man.

There is literally nothing female about him. Nothing.

And due to the clarification of the law, a request for a ‘female clinician’ means a biological woman. No clarification needed.

Dr Upton and any other trans women clinicians are required to follow the law, as are the NHS trusts and private hospital trusts that employ them.

How would Dr Upton know if the person had a uterus or not? The person is saying I'm a pregnant woman but is clearly a biological man. How does Dr Upton proceed?

Yes. But also, " A [selected] trans person [who fits one person's personal criteria] is whatever they say they are. And who are you to object?"

Can't sit on my hands for 'pregnant people' fast
Enough

I'd bet good money Tandora is a man with a hobby. It is a solo hobby and it takes up a lot of time.

And I'm just wondering at what point DR Upton says "you can't be pregnant, you're a man".

Can't sit on my hands for 'pregnant people' ffs
Enough

Edited to swear

I’m tired of all this ontological and epistemological wrangling. It has a place, Tandora, and that’s not the ladies’ loos, not as long as posters like Taztoy exist.

Could someone just post that fantastic letter written to a “woke bro” presenting the ethical conundrum of a guy falling onto train tracks and dying despite the laws of physics, and be done with it? It sums up exactly what’s happening on this thread (with the added, infuriating element that most posters are actually engaging with on multiple levels - metaphysical, philosophical, ethical, practical - and still dismissed as inadequate).

Seriously, though - I’m on my iPad in a cafe without any of my links or resources, so if someone knows what I mean and could share a link or paste, it’s the perfect response to all of this, and a great analogy for anyone who’s not yet read it.

I'm not going to get dragged into this nonsense again - it's not an interesting use of my time.

A simple conversation would suffice, as is always the case with medical care. There are also clinical history notes to be drawn on and obviously clinically indicators that suggest whether someone is pregnant or not.

It's my fault for allowing myself to get dragged into this silliness.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 if ever the laughing emoji was needed!

I know @catiette.
Hands back under buttocks

Nailed - the issue here is that one side of the debate (and it is not the sex realist one) is not willing to accept provable facts and facts, and instead spends lots of time trying to lie and obscufate with the end goal of ending women's rights.

obviously clinically indicators that suggest whether someone is pregnant or not.

Like them being men.

So you do accept that sex is real and matters.

Why are you pretending to side with Upton if you believe sex is real and matters?

It's my fault for allowing myself to get dragged into this silliness.

Nobody made you start this thread.
And now it's going the way of all the others.

Because 'sex' is not just one thing. Sex is a complex, muti-dimensional variable.

No it isn't.

I’m tired of all this ontological and epistemological wrangling.

I'm not sure that is what's going on here though. I can follow these arguments easily and I can promise you i wouldn't be able to if it was proper ont/epi wrangling.

It's just a person who says they are not trans repeatedly telling us that they know exactly what it is to be trans and that the rest of us can't possibly know - because we are not trans