A little piece of insight

[Tandora]

Into a topic so woefully misunderstood.

Wanted to change our minds, educate us, show us the error of our ways.

Got pushback.

No it isn't.

Oh I don't regret starting the thread, I just meant that particularly silly game about how do doctors know what body parts people have - they ask them of course, and/or do tests, and/or read clinical notes. I've done that silly game before.

This is what it is to be a trans woman.

Just to clarify - we are only talking about the ones with dysphoria, not those with AGP.

OK, I understand your point. What I take from this discussion is that these transwomen really, really, really believe they are female (despite knowing they have male bodies).

What I want you to understand is that it doesn't matter, it is irrelevant. What matters is what body they have (i.e. a male one, no matter how much surgery and hormone treatment).
Female-only spaces are for female bodies, not "female minds".

That's nice, whenever you say dear.

I already did, further up thread. ALL which historically had different protocols for male/female.

So if a patient who was clearly male walks in and says "my tummy hurts, I'm pregnant" and promptly collapses unconscious, the doctor has to give them a pregnancy test before starting treatment?

I'm out, before the bimodal charts arrive 😁👋

I just meant that particularly silly game about how do doctors know what body parts people have

There's nothing silly about wondering if Dr Upton truly understands human biology - bearing in mind the fact that he claims to be a biological woman, despite having male genitalia.

So if words have no concrete meaning, how does anyone “know” anything? How does DU even know he is a doctor? How does anyone know what a doctor is? Can you define rift or in a way that will include all those claiming to be doctors and exclude everyone else?

Oooh the gender spectrum. I miss that

I asked about my colposcopy. I ask for a female clinician as is my right.

Dr Upton turns up ready to have a furtle in my fanny.

Has Dr Upton disregarded my consent or lack thereof or not?

I really wish they'd bring it back.

Honestly, nobody could really believe all this.

Did you see the Green Party prat who shared a load of graphs showing the MALE and FEMALE distributions for certain traits like height and thought it proved sex wasn't binary because there was some crossover?

Someone did another one with horses and cars...

I realize this thread is nearly finished, but I think it's worth pointing out that there are many people posting on Trans Reddit who 100% don't match the description in the original post, who consider themselves also to be "trans".

If the original post "nails it" then many of them are entirely wrong. Or else, the OP is a singular description or at least not universal.

I starting to think we should check that @Tandora is ok. These surely are the ramblings of an unwell person.

I think Tan posts on here for the same reason the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door.

It's a recruitment exercise for a cult with irrational beliefs that needs to keep trying to convince more people of Their One Righteous Truth because the scales are falling off the eyes of former cult members and the whole edifice is crumbling.

I'm sure she gets the same sanctimonious glow from trying to convert the infidel.

Meanwhile, the world goes on being round.

I can't say what I want to say about T's motivations without getting deleted. I got deleted earlier, presumably for saying "creep off". (I see "bore off" all the time!)

Whatever the motivations, the whole thing is very very unserious.

Dr Upton's subjective 'knowing' of self tells her that she is female.
This is the reality of her cognitive experience - despite the fact that she was registered male at birth and her body has physical characteristics that are usually associated with being male.
This is what it is to be a trans woman.

1. So what? IYO, what are the consequences of DU subjectively knowing DU is female? What should they consequences be?
2. Per your definition, I am sometimes trans. I believed I was a boy and sometimes still experience myself as a man even though I have a female body. Yet even as a young child, I knew that others viewed me as a girl. I assume that DU also knows that most other people view him as a man. Why should we prioritize how DU views himself over how most others view DU? Esp when dealing with patients (so acting in a professional role where the needs of DU's clients are supposed to be the priority), why should DU's self-perception be more important than the patient's?
3. In everyday life when dealing with single sex spaces and services, why should DU's self-perception be more important than the perception of other people? Why should DU be able to use women's toilets when many other people will view him as a man who is using women's toilets, esp when many will be distressed bc of it?

I was a young child when I realized that my self-perception was not the same as the perception of other people. I might view myself as a boy, but others viewed me as a girl. I had to take that into account in order to function in the world. Most children can pass the Sally-Anne test (www.open.edu/openlearn/mod/oucontent/view.php?id=67018&section=1.3) between the ages of 3-5. Yet you act like it's too much to expect DU to realize that others view him as a man and adjust his behavior.

Yes, a philosophical argument.

If Doctor Upton, a man, claims to be a woman, he is wrong.

[I tell students not to use scare-quotes, btw; I'm not saying he is 'wrong', just that he is wrong. When you write of his subjective 'knowing' of self, you aren't talking about anything he knows, are you? (Because if you were, you wouldn't need the scare-quotes.) So what are you talking about? ... This is an example of why I disallow student scare-quotes: they cause confusion and allow sloppiness. Do you understand this, @Tandora?]

Doctor Upton, a man, cannot know he is a woman, because "Dr Upton is a woman" is false, and knowledge requires truth.

Doctor Upton might well think he is a woman, or believe he is. And we can agree he does. What we (and the good doctor) might disagree about is whether his belief is true or not.

I say a man cannot be, or become, a woman, which is why "Dr Upton is a woman" is false. You?

Of course it all comes down to whether a trans woman is a woman or not. That's why "TWAW" has such a history, and why "No Debate" was so current a while since.

All the chat about "subjective 'knowing' of self" and such is just so much smoke and mirrors put about by those whose philosophical arguments aren't up to much. Sorry, @Tandora.

Regarding 1-3, these are all valid questions.

But we can't have a reasonable conversation towards answering them until people understand this :

DU's "subjective 'knowing' of self tells her that she is female."

As you will see from this thread this is under intense dispute, with most posters absolutely refusing to believe that this is possible.

Regarding your last statement.

Yet you act like it's too much to expect DU to realize that others view him as a man and adjust his behavior.

Yes, I believe it absolutely is too much in many cases, because of the profound distress that results from this. This is part of why many trans people 'transition' .
DU has transitioned - you have no basis for your assertion that "others view him as a man". Some people do, and many others don't.

TRAs really think they're the centre of the universe, don't they? They claim all the words, all the meanings, all the feelings.

I “absolutely refuse to believe it” because Upton is a manipulative, misogynistic man, not a woman.

Dr Upton can think Dr Upton is whatever Dr Upton wants to think Dr Upton is.

I have never disputed that.

However, the law is clear.

DU's "subjective 'knowing' of self tells her that she is female."

Well, he's wrong, because he's a man.

As you will see from this thread this is under intense dispute, with most posters absolutely refusing to believe that this is possible.

That's because it isn't actually possible. HTH.