Page 7 | Is anyone else surprised that so-called feminists still think that TWAW?

AnnaQuayInTheUk · 2025-04-17T17:37:08+00:00

Several friends who have been quite pro TWAW in the past are today posting all over social media that they are devastated by yesterday's ruling, that they are Trans Allies, that TERFs should be truly ashamed etc etc. These are women who also describe themselves as feminists. I thought they'd be lying low today, or maybe even giving a measured response to the ruling, but it seems to have triggered them into an extreme of Trans allyship. I'm having to hold myself back from.descending into a slanging match with them. Is it possible to be a feminist and believe that TWAW or should you stop claiming that title if you won't accept the SC ruling?

Willandra · 18/04/2025 07:18

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You are the one coming for Gay people by objecting to a ruling which upholds the legal rights of Homosexual people.

Gays and Lesbians were part of the group that joined with women to oppose the Scottish Government's interpretation of the Equality Act, resulting in the recent ruling.

The Supreme Court directly addressed the harms done to Homosexual and Lesbian people by those who insist biological sex doesn't exist, showing the legal rights of Gays and Lesbians who are attracted to their own sex were harmed by this ideology that sex doesn't exist and can be changed by a certificate or belief.

Stonewall harassed Lesbians who were not interested in penises to the point their behaviour was found a by an another court to be Homophobic and a violation of Human Rights - that harassment continued into the lives of Lesbians.

The Supreme Court has now underlined Homosexual people have rights, including not having to invite the opposite sex to their spaces if they don't want to - even males who say they are Lesbians.

Merrymouse · 18/04/2025 07:23

Nobody ever explains what they mean by TWAW, If they could make this argument I am sure that the judges would have made a different decision.

I think the thing that really made the FWS case clear was the argument about heterosexual men becoming lesbians because of a bit of paper,

Willandra · 18/04/2025 07:26

Micaela64 · 17/04/2025 22:36

You must all be very proud to share the same viewpoint as Trump's supporters.

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The ruling said Gender can be changed but not Sex.

If you think only Trump voters believe that you are woefully ignorant of the world; saying only we must all be right-wing because we believe sex is biological is like saying you must support Prisoner X in the NHS case, a middle-aged pedophile who insists he's a teenage girl, because you both believe TWAW.

Theunamedcat · 18/04/2025 07:31

Honestly, the response from some people has been disappointing a Facebook friend has come out and said it's a good thing only to be scolded saying

They aren't dominating women's sports if they were we would know about it (anyone for snooker?)

They produce less hormones than "real men" it's been "proven" (where?)

We should stay out of everyone's pants (well that's a point but not the one your trying to prove)

A lot of "I'm disappointed in you I thought you were KIND and NICE"

a lot calling her a meanie some friends agreeing with her I just dropped in that I'm glad trans men's sex based rights are finally being protected should they choose to have a baby

SidewaysOtter · 18/04/2025 07:39

2JFDIYOLO · 18/04/2025 01:41

A few friends have been allysplurging all over their social media today. Loudly and colourfully and dramatically. But the thing is ... It's very few. Pretty much the usual suspects. The vast majority have not mentioned it. I reckon that vast majority agree with the ruling, but don't feel safe saying so. I sure as hell don't. Only one friend has done so and she was hounded off Twitter a few years back.

I’ve been pleasantly surprised that only one person on my social media has said anything. Not only does she painfully signal her virtue at the best of times anyway, but she’s only had a smattering of “likes”.

I suspect a lot of people either a) quietly agree with the ruling, b) quietly disagree in a vaguely “but…kindness!” way but have seen which way the wind is blowing, or c) don’t really care about the issue.

Merrymouse · 18/04/2025 07:39

Floisme · 18/04/2025 06:58

I honestly don’t know how you put up with your Facebook friends and their patronising ‘look how Trump influences the world’ outlook @Delphinium20and I hope you know you have my sympathies, but I hope you pointed out to them that Mumsnet feminists were already on to this when Trump was still a reality show host.

Ironically, ‘MAGA’ does offer an explanation for some of the more brain dead reactions to the judgement.

Trump makes appealing arguments that are often intellectually incoherent - e.g. on tariffs. but ‘if you are explaining you are losing’, and people just switch off when they find an argument difficult or uncomfortable.

Merrymouse · 18/04/2025 07:47

Pieceofpurplesky · 18/04/2025 00:19

Does the ruling now mean that trans men must use the female bathrooms? Or is it just trans women that need to change?
Can any man now enter a female space and say he’s a trans man?

I think that is how it is being interpreted, but after the 2022 Haldane judgement it was already settled law that somebody without a GRC had no legal right to be regarded as the opposite sex, and most trans people don’t have a GRC.

It was already clear that e.g. NHS Fife had not fulfilled their duty to provide single sex changing facilities.

forgotmyusername1 · 18/04/2025 08:00

Micaela64 · 17/04/2025 23:34

Trans people are 0.5% so regardless of how you spin the statistics women are far more likely to be raped by cis men and if men are pretending to be trans women to get to women then that's a cis man problem, not a trans women problem.

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This is why safeguarding exists.

Children are vulnerable so we don't give all adults access to children in case some wish to do them harm

Women are vulnerable therefore we don't give all men access to women in case some wish to do them harm

The argument of 'well not all trans women are sexual offenders therefore we shouldn't ban trans women from access to vulnerable women' could be extended to 'well not all adults are paedophiles therefore if a kids nursery is held in a church hall we should let any adult in to spend time with them as they may just like playing with kids'

And for those who say 'well there is a difference between real trans women and fake trans women who put on a dress in order to get access to women'- I am sure there is but unfortunately there is no way of telling the difference as they look the same. Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

forgotmyusername1 · 18/04/2025 08:16

TertiaryAdjunctofUnimatrix01 · 18/04/2025 03:14

Transwomen have:

attacked lesbians for saying they won’t sleep with male-bodied penis-havers, no matter how they identify in their heads. These attacks are sometimes physical, such as punching, rushing at or pushing lesbians marching in Pride marches around the world. Plenty of video evidence.
Coerced and intimidated lesbians by invading OLD and physical spaces and demanding that they be included in dating pools. No, your ‘Ladydique‘ is not a female organ, it’s a run of the mill cock and balls. No, it doesn’t have a different mouthfeel because you ‘feel’ like a woman. These and a lot worse are said to lesbians a lot. Plenty of evidence again.
attacked women of any sexuality for saying biological sex (not gender) is important in medical, legal and social contexts.
these attacks include doxxing, rape and death threats, bullying and mobbing in the workplace. Plenty of evidence.

Who’s been doing the bullying?

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Anyone remember the workshop given about 'breaking the cotton ceiling' I.e. how to get into lesbians nickers as a trans woman

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 08:24

VichyVich · 18/04/2025 07:09

A lot of this going on in a women & girls Facebook group I'm in (am I allowed to mention the group name?). It sure has quickly turned into being all about TWAW on there this week. The mention of bio women is increasingly getting shit down already. It's so exhausting!

One of the most eye opening (and depressing) things about all of this is how captured so many women are. Like, maybe you would feel perfectly comfortable stripping off in front of a male bodied trans person, even if they weren't one of your nice friends but a complete stranger, but surely it's not hard to understand why many women wouldn't feel comfortable doing that? Why do they think those women's safety and comfort matters less than that of trans people? Do they realise their position is that people born with penises should take priority over people born with vaginas?

Merrymouse · 18/04/2025 08:25

forgotmyusername1 · 18/04/2025 08:00

This is why safeguarding exists.

Children are vulnerable so we don't give all adults access to children in case some wish to do them harm

Women are vulnerable therefore we don't give all men access to women in case some wish to do them harm

The argument of 'well not all trans women are sexual offenders therefore we shouldn't ban trans women from access to vulnerable women' could be extended to 'well not all adults are paedophiles therefore if a kids nursery is held in a church hall we should let any adult in to spend time with them as they may just like playing with kids'

And for those who say 'well there is a difference between real trans women and fake trans women who put on a dress in order to get access to women'- I am sure there is but unfortunately there is no way of telling the difference as they look the same. Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

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I think men called Archibald who support Bristol Rovers and breed Siamese cats make up less than 0.5% of the population. They also can’t use services provided for the opposite sex.

The key really is explaining why TWAW, but no logical explanation is ever forthcoming.

Hence Wednesday’s judgement.

Sunshineandblueskysalltheway · 18/04/2025 08:48

Micaela64 · 17/04/2025 23:43

I wonder how many of these "knowledgeable posters" have ever even spoken to a trans person in depth or got to know them to try and better understand their experience instead of just reading about them in the Daily Mail.

Edited

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I've spoken to several. 3 didn't believe that they're actually women themselves and were confused by the TWAW nonsense.

The rest caused absolute chaos at a women's event I chaired and were clearly there to troll. If I hadn't let them attend i would have lost my job.

Not anymore.

Runnersandtoms · 18/04/2025 08:54

I've not discussed this at all with my daughter. She's big on feminism, has been studying feminist art, is also probably lesbian. But her friendship group features a lot of 'trans' or 'non-binary' identities for whom she faithfully uses their preferred pronouns and made-up names. I don't want to argue with her about this stuff so am keeping quiet. She's not commented on the ruling.

stickygotstuck · 18/04/2025 08:58

TempestTost · 17/04/2025 22:54

I'm not surprised. SO not surprised I'm not really disappointed.

For a lot of women being a feminist is really just part of identifying as a good person, they think being on the left politically is about being a good person, and that feminism is part of being on the left. What can you expect from people who think those on the right actually intend to be evil? With that level of political sophistication you can't expect much.

Especially for the younger ones, they learned little about questioning all narrative in school. What they learned is that people who don't accept political progressivism are bigots and that is the worst possible thing, except for being Not Nice.

And for many of these people, their model now is identity politics, and TWAW is kind of the highest expression of identity politics. Their feminism is in the form of id politics too.

Totally agree.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/04/2025 09:00

Runnersandtoms · 18/04/2025 08:54

I've not discussed this at all with my daughter. She's big on feminism, has been studying feminist art, is also probably lesbian. But her friendship group features a lot of 'trans' or 'non-binary' identities for whom she faithfully uses their preferred pronouns and made-up names. I don't want to argue with her about this stuff so am keeping quiet. She's not commented on the ruling.

I think that if she has a lot of trans friends she must be aware of the ruling. The fact that she has not commented on it speaks volumes in itself.

Hamabeed · 18/04/2025 10:01

BunfightBetty · 17/04/2025 23:10

The patronising won’t wash either. It’s the kind of debating tactic that teenagers use.

I don’t need to read the Mail, as I’m capable of interpreting basic stats.

99% of sex offenders are male. Women are 14 times more likely to be sexually assaulted in mixed sex changing facilities than they are in single sex ones. So you advocating for men to be In women’s spaces is you saying that you are happy for more women to be raped than would otherwise be. That men’s feelings are more important to you - and should be more important to society - than women’s safety.

Why do you think that women should be raped so men’s feelings aren’t hurt? Please explain.

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@BunfightBetty Do you have a link to the source of the data quoted here? I absolutely believe it just need to link to sources.
I am in the middle of a debate with a TWAW gay male friend and he’s asking me for evidence of exactly this kind.

LlynTegid · 18/04/2025 10:06

I am not surprised as some people will not admit they were wrong as to them it's not something they do.

Just like the parents whose children are always angelic in their eyes, or those who defend Brexit.

DuesToTheDirt · 18/04/2025 11:05

Runnersandtoms · 18/04/2025 08:54

I've not discussed this at all with my daughter. She's big on feminism, has been studying feminist art, is also probably lesbian. But her friendship group features a lot of 'trans' or 'non-binary' identities for whom she faithfully uses their preferred pronouns and made-up names. I don't want to argue with her about this stuff so am keeping quiet. She's not commented on the ruling.

Similar situation here.... I have discussed it a bit with some terfy friends but have not said anything to family. Thank goodness for the threads on here.

BunfightBetty · 18/04/2025 12:02

@Hamabeed Here’s some useful info.

The data is clear. Women are vastly more at risk in mixed sex facilities. The majority of assaults happen there, rather than in single sex spaces.

When people advocate for men to be in women’s single sex spaces, what they are saying is they don’t care if more women are raped or assaulted because of this, they think the men’s feelings are more important. They’re happy for women to be harmed if it means the men get what they want.

Of course, lots of people are unaware of the stats when they first parrot the TWAW crap, but once they are told it, they’re then in a position where they have to either accept they don’t care about women, or change their mind. Online, people just go quiet and fail to answer the question. IRL, I’ve found people initially sometimes double down and are disbelieving, but have to accept the evidence once they see it. At that point, I’ve found it helpful not to crow or be too pushy, so they have space to amend their views without losing too much face.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Single-sex-services-30-minute-read.pdf

ONS data for sex offending shows 99% prevalence male perpetration in the most recent figures, in previous years it has sometimes been quoted as 98%, it tends to hover somewhere between the two figures

Unisex changing rooms put women in danger | Fair Play For Women

There is unequivocal evidence that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities. Get the facts

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

thevassal · 18/04/2025 13:12

I follow a feminist book club (as in that is it's specific focus, the name is literally X feminist bookclub), which today posted that, while they want to be as inclusive as possible, women who don't stand in solidarity with their trans 'sisters' cannot be part of the club.

I wouldn't have minded if they'd said 'trans women will still be welcome at the book club so if you are unhappy with their presence/can't be courteous and respectful please don't attend,' (as far as I understand it the ruling means transwomen CAN be excluded from female-only places if it is a relevant exemption under the EA, not that every single place, event, organisation etc. aimed at women MUST exclude them) - but going as far to say that if you don't completely agree with us that TWAW, no ifs and buts, no debate, you aren't welcome, regardless of whether any trans women are there or not, seems quite extreme.

To have a female-focussed group deciding that they would prefer to exclude biological women in order to include men, is...a choice

Waitwhat23 · 18/04/2025 13:20

thevassal · 18/04/2025 13:12

I follow a feminist book club (as in that is it's specific focus, the name is literally X feminist bookclub), which today posted that, while they want to be as inclusive as possible, women who don't stand in solidarity with their trans 'sisters' cannot be part of the club.

I wouldn't have minded if they'd said 'trans women will still be welcome at the book club so if you are unhappy with their presence/can't be courteous and respectful please don't attend,' (as far as I understand it the ruling means transwomen CAN be excluded from female-only places if it is a relevant exemption under the EA, not that every single place, event, organisation etc. aimed at women MUST exclude them) - but going as far to say that if you don't completely agree with us that TWAW, no ifs and buts, no debate, you aren't welcome, regardless of whether any trans women are there or not, seems quite extreme.

To have a female-focussed group deciding that they would prefer to exclude biological women in order to include men, is...a choice

Everyone must recite the mantras or be excommunicated basically.

And it's not a cult....

LonginesPrime · 18/04/2025 13:37

thevassal · 18/04/2025 13:12

I follow a feminist book club (as in that is it's specific focus, the name is literally X feminist bookclub), which today posted that, while they want to be as inclusive as possible, women who don't stand in solidarity with their trans 'sisters' cannot be part of the club.

I wouldn't have minded if they'd said 'trans women will still be welcome at the book club so if you are unhappy with their presence/can't be courteous and respectful please don't attend,' (as far as I understand it the ruling means transwomen CAN be excluded from female-only places if it is a relevant exemption under the EA, not that every single place, event, organisation etc. aimed at women MUST exclude them) - but going as far to say that if you don't completely agree with us that TWAW, no ifs and buts, no debate, you aren't welcome, regardless of whether any trans women are there or not, seems quite extreme.

To have a female-focussed group deciding that they would prefer to exclude biological women in order to include men, is...a choice

Just a reminder that gender critical beliefs fall under the protected characteristic of philosophical belief in the EA 2010.

As you say, insisting that people behave respectfully to each other would be fine, but saying “if you believe sex is real then you can’t come in” is not ok.

Hamabeed · 18/04/2025 15:26

BunfightBetty · 18/04/2025 12:02

@Hamabeed Here’s some useful info.

The data is clear. Women are vastly more at risk in mixed sex facilities. The majority of assaults happen there, rather than in single sex spaces.

When people advocate for men to be in women’s single sex spaces, what they are saying is they don’t care if more women are raped or assaulted because of this, they think the men’s feelings are more important. They’re happy for women to be harmed if it means the men get what they want.

Of course, lots of people are unaware of the stats when they first parrot the TWAW crap, but once they are told it, they’re then in a position where they have to either accept they don’t care about women, or change their mind. Online, people just go quiet and fail to answer the question. IRL, I’ve found people initially sometimes double down and are disbelieving, but have to accept the evidence once they see it. At that point, I’ve found it helpful not to crow or be too pushy, so they have space to amend their views without losing too much face.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Single-sex-services-30-minute-read.pdf

ONS data for sex offending shows 99% prevalence male perpetration in the most recent figures, in previous years it has sometimes been quoted as 98%, it tends to hover somewhere between the two figures

Edited

Fantastic thank you.

Totally recognise your characterisation of how the discussion goes. You get to the “really? I didn’t know that..” “Do you have any data?”…. “oh wow”… stage and let it sink in. Turns out my TWAW friend actually believes in biological sex and it’s really just a lot of misguided Be Kind and lack of knowledge. A lot of my friends in their 30s have this set of views when you scratch the TWAW so be kind surface. I’m a bit older and have also been on MN a long time.

andgoodnessknows · 19/04/2025 12:53

Micaela64 · 17/04/2025 22:36

You must all be very proud to share the same viewpoint as Trump's supporters.

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Trump also believes the Earth is flat. You presumably do too, and so you are aLeo aligned with Trump supporters. Can you not see how reductive and childish your line of reasoning is??

porridgecake · 19/04/2025 13:03

thirdfiddle · 17/04/2025 19:06

Never underestimate how blinded people can be by groupthink. I was going to say never underestimate how stupid people can be, but it's not that, they're just not starting to engage critical thinking, they're blinded by mantras.

Yes. Just look at MLM in the 80s and 90s. Even otherwise intelligent people, as well as the lonely and desperate, completely taken in by companies selling water filters and washing powder. It was mass brainwashing. Ditto religious cults.

Cults have always existed but the trans cult is one of the most successful and dangerous, mostly because of the internet and meticulously planned institutional capture.