Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

Yes. Female only spaces exclude all MALES by design.

It's not just about danger/safety. It's also about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze. It is disingenuous to say an intact male in a dress is not violating female only rights to privacy and dignity because.... 'men attack women in other places'.

This IS the hill to die on, WOMENS RIGHTS is always the hill to die on, and we will, and we are winning this war, and we won't stop and you better bloody believe it! Handmaidens and Mens Rights activists are not going to win this war. Feminists will.

Being a feminist is about fighting for social, political , economic equality for women.

Fearing, rejecting, excluding, objectifying trans people is about being anti trans.

To be progressive, we always have to challenge and question ‘standard practice’.
I don;t care if something is progressive or not, I care if it is true or not. Nobody gains longterm if lies are upheld because some people consider them to be progressive.

Why are women, girls and rape survivors scared of males in our female only intimate single sex spaces, @Wellee ?

Is that what you are genuinely asking?

I suggest you visit your local rape crisis centre and battered womens shelter, to learn WHY women and girls are INSTINCTUALLY afraid of males.

Males are not women. Excluding males with penis and testicles from FEMALE ONLY intimate safe single sex spaces is not 'anti-trans' NOR anti-male.

You, are anti-female.

You have a simplistic.and mistaken understanding of the arguments that have been made. Plus, you are attributing motivations to others instead of listening.

It's not 'anti trans' for.women to want a male free space. It's not 'anti trans' for women to want words, rights, and protections on the basis of our sex. It's absurd to pretend that including men in the class of 'women' doesn't make everything mixed sex, and therefore remove all of women's equitable rights in one fell swoop.

You've been given evidence of how unisex toilets are extremely dangerous for women. Yet still persist in preferring this very dangerous practice.

It's SEX segregation. Not 'gender' segregation. Until you begin to understand that vital difference, your posts on this thread are misinformed and you will never understand the issue is about SEX and MALE SEX GENITALS, not some airy 'gender' 'identity' in a male's head.

Trans men can often pass. But trans women almost never do. Gait, voice, limb length, adam's apple, philtrum width, lack of hips etc etc.

Our issue is more with transwomen. Not trans men.

Just a reminder.

Surgeries and certificates don't make someone the sex they are materially not.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

And no male can have that body, not matter what chemicals or surgeries they have.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.
How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

Yeah, just let people take OxyContin, get butt lifts, do whatever they want! How liberal and progressive 🙄

If people are going to do whatever they want, who is responsible for dealing with the fallout when it all goes wrong? Who treats the subsequent stroke, cancer, surgical complications? Who pays for it?

You nailed this one too eliza. The hypocrisy of some of these posters was something to behold.

Positioning women who are prioritising the needs of female people as ‘anti-trans’ is apparently acceptable, but those same posters get upset when it is pointed out that if that makes us anti-trans then those prioritising male people who have a gender identity needs as ‘anti-woman’.

This concept that any change, such as removing female single sex spaces when they are needed to prioritise mixed sex spaces, must be progressive is really a case of Chesterton’s fence.

It is ludicrous and it is harmful.

⬆️ This is excellent.

Genuine question - if a trans male is someone who is transitions F2M, you’re okay with them being in female spaces?

So they’ve taken hormones, lowered their voice, had an mastectomy, increased their muscle mass, grown their beard, and are presenting as male - but you wouldn’t be uncomfortable if they’re in the bathroom? It’s literally just the presence of penis we’re meant to be frightened of?

I don’t understand that. Or how we’re supposed to police that. If we see someone presenting as male are we meant to be asking them to show us their lack of penis to make us feel better?

Such a well written post. Thank you @Helleofabore for expressing so clearly all that is so illogical.

It's not a fantasy for me - I'd like to see it reversed (and I'm a feminist too). I just don't think it's going to happen.

By the way to see what should be considered for evaluating risk of this sub group of males to show that they have a risk level not less than any other male in the UK of committing sex crime, this is for anyone who wants to read through the statistics for males who have transgender identities who commit sex crimes in the UK

This was a question answered the other month:

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2024-12-16/20298.

Question from Rebecca Paul (MP Reigate): To ask the Secretary of State for Justice, with reference to the HMPPS Offender Equalities Annual Report 2023-2024, published on 28 November 2024, how many of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female were convicted of a sexual offence.

Answer from Sir Richard Dakin (MP Scunthorpe): 23 December 2024

Of the 245 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as male (i.e. those who now identify as women, non-binary or gender-fluid) on 31 March 2024, 151 were convicted of a sexual offence. This includes both contact and non-contact sexual offences. Offence data was not available for 1 individual.

Of the 50 transgender prisoners who reported their legal gender as female on 31 March 2024, the number convicted of a sexual offence is five or fewer. We do not provide exact data for such small sample sizes as it risks identification of individuals. This approach is in line with our standards on data disclosure.

To put this into perspective with what we already knew from FOI information. I posted the information to a regular poster from FWR on another thread, who did not acknowledge the information at all, so it seems sticking the info here is appropriate:

Here is data from the MoJ
Here is an FOI request from 30 April 2024

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/populationoftransgenderoffend/response/2641337/attach/html/7/FOI%20240322022%20Annex%20A.xlsx.html

Up to the 31st March 2023, the MoJ stated that of the 88 male transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was

48 rapes,
0 attempted rapes,
10 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
13 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
0 indecent assault or gross indecency
6 sexual activity with a child under 16
0 other

77 listed here.... BUT there is a total of 88 in the total so there is 11 crimes not noted.

Possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child has not been recorded in this FOI.

However, there is are further discrepancies in the data of the following when you look at TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE.

1 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
3 rapes
2 sexual activity with a child under 16
3 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,

This equals 9 additional... however the sum for TOTAL NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER PRISONERS SENTENCED FOR A PRINCIPAL SEXUAL OFFENCE is 99.

Therefore 2 more sex crimes have been hidden from this data.

There were 203 males who were declared as transgender in the prison at the time.

There were 24 NB who were not segregated into male and female. What is key here, is that THIS IS NON-GRC HOLDERS. And we all know that males holding GRCs have increased and they are excluded from this data. NO female people with transgender identities were sentenced to a principal sexual offence. There were 41 female people with transgender identities in UK prisons at that time.

As a comparison, I have stats that say as of April 2019 that the general male MoJ data for male sex offenders was just 16.8% of the male prison population. And there were 3.3% of female people in UK prisons were sex offenders.

I will leave you to do your own sums. But... even using the figure of 88/203 is 43.3%. (And that doesn't include making or possessing indecent photographs of a child remember.)

By the way this exercise was done in 2021. And I checked this data myself from the data source and it was correct at the time. So, it will give some back ground to the above.

The ones that say that in the March/April 2021 data collection period, the MoJ stated that of the 97 transgender prisoners with one or more sexual offences.

The breakdown was
40 rapes,
8 attempted rapes,
31 possessing or making indecent photographs or pseudo photographs of child,
32 Sexual assault or attempted sexual assault,
20 causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity,
10 indecent assault or gross indecency
9 sexual activity with a child under 16
27 other

The 97 sex offender transgender prisons collected 177 sentences between them.

And that according to that FOI 197 prisoners are transgender.

This is why NO SUB GROUP OF MALE PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM RISK ASSESSMENT. This group of male people still retain the same male pattern of committing sex and violent crime.

I accept you. Completely, with no exceptions.

Just popping on to say I think I have a crush on you @ElizaDolittle4321 🥰

I wish I could articulate my responses to this issue as well and as passionately as you have. Have saved this thread just so I can copy and paste some of the replies you marvellous women (the old fashioned type) have formulated here.

Those stats really bring it home @Helleofabore . Yet all TRAs can say is how unkind we mean women are to to the harmless vulnerable trans community. They refuse to acknowledge the real risks TW pose to women and children no matter how much evidence is produced.

Part of being a feminist is thinking for ourselves and very often ignoring the thinking of men, sometimes at great risk, if generations of women hadn’t done that we still wouldn’t have the vote, let alone any other rights.

There were sadly, many women who campaigned against the suffrage movement, believing that men should have the upper hand in all things and that women should just be compliant. That was men telling women things that aren’t true then, and the trans movement is men telling women things that aren’t true now. And you believe them. The difference between us is that the feminists on this forum don’t.

We have already made progress. The point is to not lose heart and to not settle when settling is still allowing female people to be harmed.

Thank you, that's lovely to hear. 😊

Indeed. I spent all day yesterday asking for the evidence.

Of course, we know there is no evidence that the group of male people that all these people declare should be in female single sex spaces with us is any less risk than all other UK male people.

It really is a case of Chesterton’s fence. These male people are no different from the rest of the male people that those advocates find acceptable to keep out. Allowing those male people to access female single sex spaces was never acceptable.

Removing female single sex spaces is also not progressive in any way because female people still
need them. It defies logic that someone can declare removal of female single sex spaces as ‘progress’. For instance female toilets are used for so much more than just peeing.

Why make life harder for female people by removing a facility that they need - all for the sake of allowing a group of male people to feel better about themselves? But hey… progress eh?

Why make life more dangerous for people by removing the option to use a space that offers the much needed gaps under the doors and walls to save lives?

So progressive!

And explained using a false equivalence of illegitimate discrimination and legitimate discrimination.

So, OP, I wish you good health and happiness. I wish that you find lasting acceptance within yourself. I hope you do not experience illegitimate discrimination.

However, you are a male person and always will be. Please do not use female single sex provisions. In doing so, you become the person causing harm to others. I understand that people will tell you differently because they don’t want you to feel upset. But you asked if there can be full acceptance.

If you want acceptance that you are a male person with a belief about your identity, sure.

But please do not expect that people accept you as being female when you are not.

Sex matters. And when sex matters, your gender identity should not be priortised above sex.