Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

If analysis of and understanding evidence provided in reports is not your strong point, and clearly it isn't, then I can't help you.

You can take your ignorance elsewhere.

My link had some helpful bar charts for those who like their information more visual, as words clearly aren't helping here.

I think these people are malfunctioning. So I might add "don't understand what facts and statistics are or where to find them. And how you might distinguish "facts" from "beliefs".

And that comments like "I'm not chasing up your comments for fact checking" are extremely obvious as a deflection of the "I can't be bothered to look at what you've provided me because it might challenge my belief and that's scary" variety.

Or that they might not understand how to recognise when facts and sources are valid versus when they might not be or might be expressions of belief or opinion instead.

I despair about the state of the education system, frankly, since that seems to be where we are.

It's OK Wellee, you don't have to do all the research and fact-checking yourself, Dr Cass has done it so we don't have to.

Yes, I think it's a case of i don't like your facts which are peer reviewed and scrutinised as they don't fit my fantasy world view.

I agree that this is a damning indictment of the education system in some places. Mostly the badly self educated.

Damn pesky women having minds, thoughts and independent voices of their own. Don't they realise their meant to #BeKind. Honestly they'll be allowed to vote next...

The problem with saying trans people have to use the bathroom for their birth assigned gender is how many very clearly do not look that way. You’re then asking very masculine, full beard having, clearly visually male people to enter the women’s bathrooms because they still have ovaries. They are then immediately going to be stopped and questioned about why they are deliberately entering the wrong toilet. Then in their deep voice they’ll reply “well actually, I still have a vagina” and security will be called.

Bottom line is, trans people will use their preferred toilet that suits them best and you can’t really stop it without rigorous genital policing. You’ve very likely shared the space with trans people and have absolutely no idea it ever happened. No one is getting their bits out except for inside the private cubicle. You can’t/wont know who you’re really peeing beside. The vast overwhelming majority of people are in there to use the facilities and want to get back out as quick as they can: same as the rest of us.

So what do you want exactly? To go picking out people who don’t “pass” and harassing them on if they truly belong? This can and will include innocent ovary/vulva having women who appear too masculine. Chased out their own safe space and pushed into men’s toilets or forced to prove themselves.

Quite a dark world.

Hi.

As you continue you journey as someone who wants to be treated like a woman these are things you might want to consider.

Most men are physically stronger, have more political power and more access to money than most women. Most women learn about this threat very early, and it ramps up in puberty. Therefore most of the behaviours that men see as "feminine" are actually defence mechanisms. Women behave differently when men are not present. If you pass you will see this difference. I assume that the same is for men, but as I have never experienced it I don't know.

This risk is at its highest when a man and a woman are alone together in a room. All women over the age of 21 will have experienced a situation where a man has acted friendly in public, but has changed to aggressive behaviour behind close doors. I assume that gay men also experience this, but as they are better able to defend themselves the risk is higher for women when they are alone in a room with a man. If you really want to be a woman you need to sit with this fact for a long time.

As you chosing to transition you have to be comfortable with the fact that you will cause fear in some women if you choose to use female only spaces. Something that trans-women don't realise is they stick out as a man the more women they are around. Therefore if you are in a womens toilet, and women grow up knowing that men act most aggessively towards them when they are in a room alone with them, you will not really stick out as a man but will cause fear in some women.

I personally wouldn't transition until I had done the pyschological work to understand the effect of my transitioning will have on other people. This will take years to fully understand, as part of being female is having to constantly manage the feelings and actions of men.

The problem with this, is as I said in my previous post, the place where trans-women really stick out is when they are around only women i.e single sex spaces. This causes fear in some women to the extent that they can't use those spaces any more, and others because they culturally can't be alone in a room with a man who is not their family member. If the trans community supported single-cubicle toilets, rather than demanding radical inclusion we would all be in a much better place now.

So the Cass review has been supplied as well as the additional link Murasaki helpfully provided. So that's TWO links that have been given to major evidence:

• The Cass Review (which contains the research AND multiple findings on which the review was based), given to you directly in Hellebore's post. The link again. https://cass.independent-review.uk/home/publications/final-report/
• https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/largest-study-to-date-confirms-overlap-between-autism-and-gender-diversity/ provided in Murasaki's post.

I'm not sure, therefore, how anyone can claim no evidence has been provided Look. It's literally there. Given to you on a plate. It's under your nose. Wellee, you don't even have to go back a page and check for prior posts.

So do you (or anyone else) have equivalent evidence to provide US with that would support an alternate position? Anyone?

Quite a dark world where male people know that they are male and continue to erode female boundaries without consent. The fact that they seek to do it 'by deception' makes their erosion of boundaries worse not better.

That's not to mention the fact that you appear to think people can actually disguise their natal sex. Which is frankly laughable.

@2021x I personally wouldn't transition until I had done the pyschological work to understand the effect of my transitioning will have on other people.

It would be good if this was mandatory for everyone before any part of the transition process was allowed to even begin. I don't expect many would allow themselves to open up to understanding (so much easier to yell fascist at women) but they should at least be made to try.

Transitioning seems to be an entirely solipsistic act, so that's never going to happen. It would be good though.

If someone like Valentina Sampaio, Amiyah Scott, or Nong Poy walked into a toilet you were using you wouldn’t question her for even a second.

Similarly, if say.. Laith Ashley walked into the ladies room I don’t think you or anyone else here would be saying “oh no, that’s clearly a woman!”

Some female people with transgender identities who have used testosterone to change their bodies to make correct sex identification harder for some other female people have come onto this board and have shared their experiences with us. They understand that their decisions may cause other female people distress. So they make great effort to plan their days so that they can find alternative solutions.

They also state that they do not wish to be leveraged politically to convince any person that male people with transgender identities should be allowed to access female single sex spaces. Yet, you are doing so here.

Just because some female people have taken steps that may distress other female people if they use the female single sex spaces is no reason that female people have to accept male people in female single sex spaces. While many female people can reliably correctly sex a male person, they may have difficulty in correctly sexing a female person who has taken testosterone.

'Bottom line is, trans people will use their preferred toilet that suits them best and you can’t really stop it without rigorous genital policing.'

Are you saying that male people with transgender identities will not respect policies and any law that might be enacted and stay out of single sex spaces? Is that really what you are saying? That they cannot be trusted, yet we have to accept that they should be trusted not to harm female people? Wouldn't that be contradictory?

In the past, female people did things such as left a space they saw a male person in that should have been single sex, they told other female people in the space or as they were about to enter that there was a male in that space, or they alerted security or called the police. We didn't need any ridiculous hyperbolic notion of 'genital policing' then so the assertion that it is needed now is remarkable.

Blimey. Now you’re questioning my gender. You’re asking if I’m ‘one of those women…’. Why are you being so patronising?

My solution is unisex toilet cubicles. I’ve been in tons and they’ve never been grimmer than women’s toilets. Unless they’re toilets that are grim anyway, i.e. not regularly checked. I regularly find women’s toilets in a terrible state.

Your solution is continued gender segregation of lavatories where trans people aren’t welcome.

I hear you. I don’t happen to agree.

Oh absolutely, luckily I'm not so naive to think it could ever happen (or I'd be disillusioned pretty fast!). But it's a nice thought.

In situations where there are only male or female toilets and there is no unisex alternative available it is best to use the one that would cause least distress. If you are very visibly male, like for example Laith Ashley as I said above, then it would not make sense to use the female facilities because that would cause much more distress to the women there that would naturally just see a man walking into their space.

They’re all males who don’t give a fuck about eroding single sex spaces. Their online presence might suggest that they wouldn’t be clocked as male, filters tell lies. In reality their frames and gait, hands, movement etc are likely to give them away.

in any event ‘passing’ is irrelevant . They are male. The end.

Looking at still photos, mostly photoshopped or filtered , may make someone look like they pass. In person, moving, it's pretty easy to tell.

All males should use spaces reserved for males. It’s really not complicated.

decent males who identify as trans already do this.

'No one is getting their bits out except for inside the private cubicle.'

Except for the many female people who have the need for privacy due to doors being wedged open due to caring needs who need a single sex space to remain single sex. And except for the many female people who are in partial states of undress while they are washing out their clothes due to blood, vomit, milk from leaking breasts, and food dropped from children, or themselves.

How lucky you must be never to have had need to do this? Don't worry though, you join a number of other posters who seem lucky enough to have never needed to do this to. How privileged it must be to only ever have used a public toilet within the confines of a locked cubicle!

And as for the female people who are apparently chased out, we also hear from those who are asked if they are in the correct space who actually thank the woman who is politely doing the asking. Because that woman asking politely is doing their best to keep themselves and other female people safe in that space.

Also, having been a child and teen who was regularly mistaken for a boy, all it takes is a 'I am a girl thank you' .

You say passing is irrelevant but I was replying to a comment that said people can always tell. It’s factually not the case at all. Men and women come in all shapes and sizes. I know 2 very tall women (“amazons” as they call themselves) with large hands who are often wrongly assumed to be trans. They have even been complimented on how well they pass.

I guess if you don’t really see this side of things you don’t see how bizarre your comment is.

Unfortunately people who have no integrity re their identity will have no integrity re using the spaces provided for their biological sex. It would be nice if they did. Wanting to be a woman while intimidating women doesn't sit well with me, and merely underlines the maleness.

I believe it is you who is attempting to leverage having to allow female people who have taken testosterone to change their appearance to allow male people to use female single sex spaces.

No male people should be using the female single sex toilets, regardless of where a female person who uses testosterone to change their appearance chooses to go. Because female people are highly likely to correctly sex a male person, no male should believe that they can enter a female single sex space without the likelihood of causing distress. And there can be no excuse of 'but none of the women showed any distress at all', because how many female people will directly show their distress when faced with a male person they feel fear and distress in the presence of? Certainly not all.