Is there any future you'd accept for trans people?

[AYoungTransWoman]

Hello, I'm a young trans person who transitioned in my teens. I've been on hormones my entire adult life, have a GRC and will have Gender Reassignment Surgery imminently.

Is there any future you would accept for people like me who have gone through everything?

Are you saying that male people with transgender identities will not respect policies and any law that might be enacted and stay out of single sex spaces? Is that really what you are saying? That they cannot be trusted, yet we have to accept that they should be trusted not to harm female people? Wouldn't that be contradictory?

Quite. On the one hand we are told that TW are all lovely, harmless, decent, people and yet on the other hand the same people say these self same TW would not respect policies or laws that would ensure female single sex spaces are for the use of females only.

Mind you that's par for the course with all GI arguments, contradiction and lack of logic are a feature not a bug.

My mother in law is like that, but the minute she speaks or walks you can tell.

But the existence of tall women doesn’t mean that males have the right to be in female single sex spaces.

Female people matter, males who ignore the right of women to single sex spaces are predatory.

Cognitive dissonance is a feature here, for sure.

I don't believe that anyone says that 100% of people can tell 100% of the time. That is hyperbole.

And I am sure that if your tall female acquaintances spoke and said 'I am a woman', they would be believed. I know many tall female people, I come from a tall family with very large hands. Still female people and still able to say 'I am a woman' when questioned.

I genuinely don't believe that those posters who use the tropish suggestions of 'genital inspections' etc actually think through the logic of what they are really saying.

Quite. Even Heraclitus, the most annoying circular philosopher I've ever read, wouldn't have any truck with the total lack of linear argument.

It's womens spaces that I'm concerned with. If a trans identified woman wants to use the mens, its really up to men to say if they arent happy with that.

Unfortunately for men it is very unlikely that they pass, especially in public toilets and change rooms. The photo of eddie izzard in the queue for the womens toilet demonstrates this. People cant use lighting, makeup and camera angles in real life.

But its important that even men who believe that they do pass stay away from womens spaces. Its unfair to women to be put in a situation where they havent consented to a man being present when they are using a toilet or undressing.

I say this to challange the idea of "feeling" like a particular sex.

I fully understand that some people are dysphoric about the parts of their bodies that indicate that they are a particular sex. I understand that this may or may not be related to trauma.

I also understand that there are people who get a sense of enjoyment or other type of fulfilment from dressing/or being seen in a particular way. I also know most of these people are in touch with reality and are able to act appropriately at times.

I also know that for some people these feelings are so intense they think that the only option is to be like that all the time, regardless of anyone else. I also understand that some people are so wrapped up in their own selves that they will fiercly defend their identity against anyone who disagrees with them.

But I strongly challange the idea that anyone "feels like a man/woman". I can't feel like a person of a different race, of a different height. I can only assume that what I am feeling is what the other person is feeling based on the behaviour from them I see.

She’s literally given her source.

My motherhood being questioned too. Yes, I have 3 children.

I said it was progressive to challenge the status quo. We shouldn’t keep doing things just because that’s how it’s always been. Otherwise women still wouldn’t be welcome in pubs. Or golf clubs. Or boardrooms. Or to vote.

Yes, IMHO unisex toilet cubicles are progressive. I don’t feel women and men need to use separate toilets. I don’t think men should have to use shared urinals. We’re all entitled to privacy.

I think we sway towards women and children, including those who think they’re trans and are at risk of permanent intervention.

'Quite a dark world where male people know that they are male and continue to erode female boundaries without consent. The fact that they seek to do it 'by deception' makes their erosion of boundaries worse not better.'

It is a dark world where male people with transgender identities cannot be trusted by the very people who profess to support them. So much so that we so often see the tactic of using the shaming hyperbole of 'so we will need genital inspections then'. Or the threat of fear of 'so full bearded female people will come in and distress women if you insist that male people with transgender identities use male single sex spaces or find their own alternative to entering female single sex spaces'. Or the further shaming tactic of 'but tall women will be made to leave the female toilets because they will be embarrassed by being asked politely if they are in the correct toilet'. Plus, 'what about the boys?' like families have not dealt with this issue with overall success for centuries. And the unevidenced claim that one group of male people are more vulnerable than any other group of male people who use the male single sex spaces.

We have also had the 'toilets are only used behind closed doors', and 'I am alright Jack, so you should be too' in different versions today too.

And all to leverage some male people into spaces that they should never have been accessing - because they are male. Not matter what hormones or surgeries they have, they are male. Nothing makes those male people female. Yet, all the tactics used are for that one purpose - to gain additional privileges for one group of male people. Not 'rights'. But additional privileges.

Yes. I have asked if you have children. Because I wish to understand your point of view. There is no 'questioning' as if it is doubted. That is your very own bad faith interpretation there.

So, you think unisex toilet cubicles are 'progressive' despite the many examples of why they don't work for other female people. You feel that you can just dismiss the needs of female people so you can feel 'progressive'?

I said it was progressive to challenge the status quo. We shouldn’t keep doing things just because that’s how it’s always been. Otherwise women still wouldn’t be welcome in pubs. Or golf clubs. Or boardrooms. Or to vote.

And here you are now leveraging illegitimate sex discrimination with legitimate sex discrimination in your argument for progress. Excluding male people from female single sex spaces and allowing female people to have those single sex spaces, ie. not removing them for mixed sex provisions, is legitimate discrimination.

Excluding female people into pubs, golf clubs, boardroom or excluding them in elections are all examples of illegitimate sex based discrimination. Changing those was indeed progress.

Removing single sex spaces is not progress because there is legitimate need for those that include safety, privacy and dignity. As well as usability.

I'm still interested as to why those who are so utterly desperate to enforce unisex toilets and changing rooms etc. on non-consenting, unwilling women and girls imagine women fought for separate ones in the first place? And saw it as a fundamental move forward in women's rights at the time?

Because, historically, they did.

Care to share your understanding of that with us? Why did they fight for that, do you imagine? Was it because they were a) massively pro-patriarchy or b) something else?

Christ, it's depressing quite how much of a number has been done on some women.

Their eyes are utterly glued to men and their demands. They appear incapable of any other focus.

So much so that they completely dismiss facts, statistics, other women's experience, vulnerable women everywhere and the evidence of their own bloody eyes.

I don’t know Helen. We so often see people declare that everything should be mixed sex as if it is ‘progress’. But no one addresses the fact that these spaces have been said to be not safe for female people. And no one addresses the alternative uses that female people have for the female single sex spaces.

It is like there is this wonderful ideal that people conceptualise but they cannot make it work with the grind of reality that is now. But they cannot admit that their ideal has flaws and that it isn’t practical for now.

I have long wondered about it Datun. I mean, I still come across women with the doors blocked open by prams, so I know it still happens. But there seems to be some kind of denial that there is no need for privacy.

And I regularly come across women in their bras or at least with their tops open cleaning themselves up. Yet there is this dismissal of their needs.

Plus the outright dismissal of the needs of those who have health conditions that need the gap under doors and walls. There is a reason for that gap. But apparently, those people’s needs don’t matter in some people’s personal understanding of what is progress.

Why is it is progress to remove female single sex spaces? Have we heard why it should be considered progress?

@EdithBond the safest public toilets for any one, is one that has door gaps in - like the traditional single sex ones have. The design is used worldwide because it is best for health and safety. Health because they are more hygienic as you can mop and soak the floor and also better ventilate the cubicle (less chance of catching germs). Safety because you have more chance of being rescued in time if you collapse. This is particularly important for people who have known or unknown medical conditions such as heart conditions, epilepsy (1% of population), diabetes, asthma etc. Toilets are a common place for people to collapse because if you feel nauseous etc in public that’s where you head. For example before a heart attack or stroke (both occurring on average one every 5 mins in this country). The process of elimination even increases the strain on the body.

I don’t know how old your children are but secondary school teachers are worried that children are having seizures in school due to spiked vapes. They are also worried about sex happening in toilets (consensual or not), bullying, drugs and self harm. This is because more school cubicles are private and they can’t see how many pupils are in each cubicle or if anyone is in trouble.

When you have a unisex toilet the design becomes private. This design discriminates most against those with health conditions (some classed as disabilities) and also women and girls (because they are most likely to be sexually assaulted). There is one rape per school day in British schools. We do not need more mixed sex private spaces.

Bizarrely there are lots of people who think making public toilet cubicles completely private and soundproof is progressive and solves the problems.

Safety should come before total privacy. The safest designs are the ones with floor to door gaps. These ones are designed for single sex.

I accept you OP, for exactly who you are. Nothing else needs to be said. I wish you all the best for the future.

Law & Order “BUH-BOOM” sounds

Well it won’t be you who deals with the lifelong complications that come with a vaginoplasty, or the serious side effects associated with males on oestrogen, with no evidence that it helps in the long term, so of course you don’t think anything else needs to be said.

“All the best with your permanently damaged body OP!”, Tandora said, cheerily.

Think with logic: why should the foxes be asking the chickens for help?

Why can't these men ask other men, each other, for help?

@Sallyssn It's ascertained 97% of transwomen don't ever have surgery, they retain their penis and testicles for life. Hormone treatments also don't alter your chromosomes or DNA.
A neutered male dog is still a male dog, even for the 3% that do have the surgery. And since there is no way we can tell which 3% of the 100% has had the op, what do you suggest we do? We must keep all males out, because you for get that

These males also retain male height and strength, and they've never gone through getting their period, having a miscarriage in the public toilets (which happens), escaping into the toilets to escape a man, etc etc. Many of us women are rape survivors. What do you think it does to us, when we see an obvious male in the intimate female only sex space? It traumatises us.

Female only spaces exist as a place to give support to females and for privacy and dignity, not just safety. Why are you putting the feelings of fully intact males, over rape survivors like myself, and vulnerable girls and women?

Have third spaces for trans people, but DON'T tell rape survivors like me that we must prioritise male feelings and having these obvious full actual males in our spaces.

These males don't actually change sex, it's not even physically possible to change/re-code your chromosomes and DNA. There is no such thing as 'changing sex'. Cosmetic surgery and taking hormones/steroids/drugs doesn't alter your sex any more than a white person changing their white features to afro-American features and bleaching their skin turns them into an African American.

@S18 You honestly hadn't realised how many women, and girls, many of us rape survivors, have a problem with males (and mostly fully intact males) in female only intimate single sex spaces such as changerooms and toilets? Or do you mean you only had a Pollyanna-type fantasy of male eunuchs in these spaces and rape and trauma victims not having a problem with it? Or you genuinely never stopped to think about it on a level deeper than surface level?

To say nothing about people who end up with Osteoporosis at aged 24, micro genitals, narrowed spinal cord, intellectual delay (due to restricting the growth hormone that is puberty chemicals) and fecal and urinary incontinence from all these wrong-sex hormones and operations on a delicate balanced biological system not set up for wrong sex hormones.

@EdithBond It might not be a big deal to you but to 99% of women and girls including rape survivors like me, it is a big deal that a fully intact male is in a space where women and girls are vulnerable. No male, whether in a dress or a suit and tie, has the right to violent sex-based spaces and boundaries, which are designed to keep all males out, regardless of how they identify. Not just for safety, but also for the privacy and dignity of the female sex class.