NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

Can you link the thread? (Is it a MN one?)

Clearly I’m not incandescent enough this morning.

Apologies TwoLoons, I’m not quite firing on all cylinders yet, but it’s this one

@Keeptoiletssafe et al.

I'm not the thread police, I say this because threads on here ARE picked up and points taken forwards in various officialdoms, so is it worth having a completely seperate thread on Keeping Toilets Safe so that all the points that are on here, and on the Vic toilets thread can be made in one place?

I'm of the opinion that all publicly accessed toilets need a complete overhaul, am very interested in all the particular needs and how we can redesign them to make them safer.

With respect, neither of these is the best option.

When my friends and I went into the ladies at a nightclub, there was a traditional row of toilets in front of me. I saw a blue hand instantly from the corresponding line of floor to door gaps. We shimmied over the top of the toilet door, pulled the young women (a student like us) out of the way of the door, opened the door from the inside, inwards, dragged her out, tipped her on to her side, cleaned the vomit out of her mouth and whacked her on the back a few times. She made a gurgling sound and a bit more vomit came out and she started turning a different colour. She was drifting in and out of consciousness when the parademics arrived but I have no reason to believe she didn’t live.

You have 4 minutes without oxygen before your body starts t getting affected. I know this because later in life I missed a child who was a few feet away from me but there was a full height door in between us. I just didn’t realise. People are not found for hours in these cubicles.

I would love to get a judicial review. I have got it in writing that the DfE school toilet designs are for privacy. It’s all about private cubicles.

The report commissioned for government to look at design for the disabled and people with long term health conditions contains this gem: It should be noted that male crotch height, while likely to encompass a majority of urinal users, does not necessarily account for the height of trans and non binary users, or people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery.
They are a top 100 Stonewall employer and got a Gold Award in a big ceremony. There is nothing wrong with looking at urinals for trans and non binary users, although I don’t understand the logic, but it wasn’t in their remit. And their recommendation puts Heavy periods don’t get a mention either, only American opinion pieces about transmen periods.

It is really important this is understood because there are so many designs changing. Dr Upton said private cubicles were the way to go too which caught my attention and related it back to the American transactivists pushing this with toilet blocks. It helps nobody at their most critical vulnerable point in life.

Because of my campaigns I have heard so many stories now of people who have been saved because of door gaps. Because people used to put health and safety first.

Marx said ‘To be radical is to grasp things by the root’. I have ploughed through thousands of pages of government documents so I know the root cause of why these designs are changing from safety to privacy. I don’t think it’s radical but it’s hard work and depressing when the government won’t (dare?) even acknowledge there’s a problem.

Thank you @Szygy, and thank you so much @Keeptoiletssafe for all the really important info you’ve been providing on here. I feel like this particular talking point is one that might have some traction in some of the groups I interact with. Is there any organisation that is pushing back against this bonkers toilet policy? Anyone you know that we could throw support behind?

hello - dealing with work at the moment so can’t answer of of you lovely people but thank you for tagging me!

For those asking about schools it’s the school output specification then annex 2A you need to look at. Gaps are fine for primary (from memory), but by secondary they mention privacy about 5 times, safety isn’t mentioned once and the gaps go down to 5mm. There IS an exception to have bigger gaps but only if schools request it in the school specific brief so it’s not ‘standard’.

For schools(paraphrasing here for time) I have been told by the DfE that responsibility for safety in toilets lies with the school and governors themselves. Schools should know their cohort and keep children safe. I said how can they predict collapses behind a full height door (illnesses, conditions, assaults) and they said there should be supervision. And it’s upto the school to manage.

No - just me.

Edit: though I get a LOT of support on here from you lovely lot. And a few of people and organisations have messaged me privately and had some success with individual projects. Got nothing published yet.

WHAT?!?

That is insane.

With respect, neither of these is the best option.

I know. That's why I said "least-worst" and outlined a choice between two bad options. We need the gaps at the bottom back.

My mother taught me to leave the door open when throwing up, whether at home or in a public loo. This remains excellent advice, no matter what cubicle design is in use. This doesn't help the epileptic poster, nor the heart attack victim, but it does help the person who is at risk of choking on her own vomit.

Of course, women will want to lock the door when throwing up in any kind of mixed-sex loo far more than when in a single-sex multiple-occupant loo because they fear attack from men whilst their vomiting makes them vulnerable, so we still need single-sex multiple-occupant loos.

I am Scottish but live in England but am back in Scotland a lot atm because my dad is in end of life care. We dashed up in mid Dec when it looked like he only had a few days left - we have to drive as we have dogs and there's me, my husband and my 27 year old daughter, who has epilepsy.

Dad rallied and we ended up staying past Christmas but my daughter was running out of epilepsy meds. We ended up driving home (to London) to sort out the meds because we couldn't get them in Scotland because of it being a different NHS.

Our surgery couldn't send a prescription to a Scottish pharmacy and we were told she had to go to A& E. We decided we might as well go home!

How does Mumsnet choose its campaigns, and can we.make this one of them?

Useful post on loo campaigns on the Old Vic thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5241554-old-vic-toilets?reply=142462204&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

Suggest we continue this conversation over there.

Apologies in my haste I was thinking about the DfE and England (where I am) and not those wonderful women in Wales who were quoted in this:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/drug-dealing-drinking-dirt-problems-28517175

Good idea. One last thing though:

I am angry about this. But I am also angry at myself that I somehow feel more angry about this whole running-roughshod-over-safety issue than about running-roughshod-over-women’s-rights-to-dignity, privacy etc. I am angry at myself and the world that it’s not enough to say “they are taking away our rights,” we also have to say “they are doing things that will lead to unnecessary death.”

Off to scream into the void.

Agreed it's ludicrous that the NHS has multiple people making decisions on the same thing, which results in the postcode lottery of what treatments are given.

A couple with fertility issues should get the same number of IVF rounds regardless if they are in Landsend or John O Groats.

Why do we have multiple committees and policy makers all meeting, and all coming up with different answers?

Same with sex / gender issues should be a straight forward Men on Men's wards and rooms, Women on Womens wards and rooms.

Simples
Shouldn't be case by case or area by area that's a heck of a lots of meetings and pen pushing all over the country.

Yes agree. Don’t want to hijack this one. I do think it’s something to keep an eye on with changing room design though. Through the Fife case I can see the ‘solutions’ being spouted - mixed sex areas with private cubicles - are the same.

Same. I Was in a museum toilet, and, like so many of them, the loo roll, in one of those big loo roll dispensers, looks like it was in the right place when you walk in, but when you're actually sitting down, it's so far behind, you have to stand up to reach it.

It happens a lot. And it surely to God can't be that hard

and loads of women have mentioned the sanitary disposal. If you centre the loo, there's no room for the bloody sanitary disposal. Put the loo to one side

@Keeptoiletssafe

also, aren't these fully enclosed loos discriminatory towards disabled people? like the poster above who has epilepsy? Very dangerous. Surely that's discrimination?

Oh, I'll copy my posts onto the new thread

Agree it is dangerous!

And hooks - pls , some hooks, to hang my coat and bag when I’m dealing with a messy situation and/or a kid!!

Typing that I suddenly realised: “they just want to pee” is in itself so MALE. Cos for women, it’s not often just a pee, is it….?

That was one of the things I found interesting (oh, after all the other many 'interesting' things) about Dr Upton when he used that phrase in the Tribunal. "I went for a pee". Most women wouldn't say that.

Yes. It puts me in mind of the pissoirs in the street in Brussels - or indeed the men openly peeing inside the metro stations or the gutter! Or on my last holiday in Austria, twice quite openly at the side of the road/path, without a care in the world or any mind to modesty! If only it were so easy for us. It’s a different world.

Urinals in the actual loos are a step up from that… .

Also doesn't mention the 1992 Health and Safety Regulations which were clearly referenced in the letter from the EHRC.

"Furthermore, the Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 state that changing facilities will not be suitable “unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety”. The Health and Safety Executive has issued an Approved Code of Practice and guidance in relation to these regulations."

The Guardian article reports

referring to reporting in the Herald that NHS Fife may have broken the law by not carrying out the required equality impact assessment on its changing room policy, White said: “We still don’t know how many public bodies are acting unlawfully when it comes to single-sex spaces. This is exactly what we warned about when Nicola Sturgeon was pursuing her flawed gender self-ID plan"

Without clarifying that the H&S regulations don't actually give NHS Fife much leeway on this issue.

Some of the politicians are clearly just trying to taking a shot at Sturgeon - hence focus on gender self-ID in parliament, but for the Guardian to neglect to mention the H&S regs is misreporting.