NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

Recycling an old username for a work in progress... Upton Smug

This shit, Im ice cold
Autogyno, EDI gold
This one, for them trans girls
Them male girls, straight mast..er..pieces
Stylin', wildin'
Livin' it up at the Vicky
Got scrubs on with my girl pants
Gonna kiss myself, I'm so pretty

She said no! (hot damn)
Can we call the police and a fireman?
I'm too hurt! (hot damn)
Make a staff nurse wanna retire, man
I'm too hurt! (hot damn)
Say she/her, you know who I am
I'm too hurt! (hot damn)
Cant accept no resistance, Break her down

Girls changing all together (wooh)
Girls changing all together (wooh)
Girls changing all together (wooh)
Cause Upton smug gon' get in with you (wooh)
Christmas eve, and Im in your space
Don't believe me, just watch, come on!

Sob! Wail a minute.
Fill a datix, put some vigor in it
(Take a note, make a check)
Patient care, that lies a stretch
Cry to HR, BMA, Deanery, the whole city

If she shows up, Im gon' freak out
Performative , just like my lippy
I'm so hurt! (hot damn)
Can we call the police? and a fireman
I'm so hurt (hot damn)
Make a staff nurse wanna retire, man
I'm so hurt! (hot damn)
Bitch say my name, you know who I am
I'm so hurt! (hot damn)
Cant accept her resistance, Break her down

Girls changing all together (wooh)
Girls changing all together (wooh)
Girls changing all together (wooh)
Cause Upton smug gon' get in with you (wooh)
Cause Upton smug gon' get in with you (wooh)
Cause Upton smug gon' get in with you (wooh)
Christmas eve, and Im in your space
Don't believe me, just watch, come on!

In a discussion a few months back about the differences between the way religious believers usually behave vs the way gender identity believers behave I think one thing was that the religious tend to concentrate on how they themselves act and how that conforms to expectations, but at least some genderists get very preoccupied with how everyone else acts.

@Swashbuckled I love it 😍

<Files it away with 'Inclusivity on Platform 13" >

Yeah, I get the consideration re proportionality wrt a forensic search of DU’s phone. That is certainly a sledge hammer action that you need to be sure is justified to be applied to the nut(s). I don’t get why the notes (and meta data) don’t appear to have formed part of normal disclosure or, a specific disclosure order in respect of them.

In the olden days I’d expect a respondent to be required to disclose hand written notes and, though an order for a third party to rifle his desk is possible, it’s probably not proportionate, especially if I can say “these notes you keep referring to, disclose them”

I think even digging up more dirt on SP will backfire.

Not least because it's a tenuous and grubby thing to do, and is direct challenge to the cult following SP has completely organically and unintentionally gained.

But also because not one of JRs witnesses have ever mentioned SP having a known or acknowledged issue with anyone trans. They knew she was into some Trump stuff and they've inferred & suggested her husband has racist friends but they've got no previous inkling or evidence of transphobia. Even though, and ED confirmed this, everyone in A&E was familiar with and had worked alongside DU for some months already (as he had a psych rotation where he would see A&E patients before moving to the department full time.) ED confirmed that everyone was aware they DU was trans (DU won't be having any of that) but had no issues with it. SP had worked with, alongside and around DU for MONTHS and despite their obsession with her being stern and outspoken, "everyone knows her opinions" they had no forewarning of "transphobia."

The problems only arise when SP was forced into a vulnerable position in a state of undress.

JR can bang on about SP telling people she stayed in a Trump hotel or whatever cheap shots she wants to take, but to my mind it makes it even more clear that SP didn't have an issue with DU because they were trans but because he is a man.

How will the judge/panel members view the withholding of documents which NHS and DU have done the whole way through? Will this have any effect on their decision making?

Any legal people in here have any idea?

They've been asked and asked and asked for them.

They were ordered to disclose anything and everything of any relevance in 3rd Jan, and then again in the first week of the trial when it was clear so much was missing. The judge even specified "hand written scraps of paper and annoyed manuscripts," and NC insisted on metadata files for all electronic documents and emails, because so many statements were undated pdfs.

There is still a lot of reason to suspect that full disclosure's have not been made and NC is asking for additional specific orders are made to ensure that it all happens.

JR is arguing against this suggestion and wants the order to be varied down. She is trying to stall handing anything more over until the variation requests are heard but the judge confirmed yesterday that until those matters are decided the original order to disclose it all stands.

The very fact they've been so avoidant and piecemeal made them look shady from the off.

It just leaves it in the threads I'm on section and it's convenient for when threads move fast so the continuation thread gets buried. Let's you get in there quick so it's easier to access.

Thanks @Boiledbeetle
Good times 😊

Clicking 'watch thread' does exactly the same with 'threads I'm watching' and doesn't fill up the thread with hundreds of posts. People are very resistant to using it for some reason but I do mourn the literal hours I've spent wasted these past weeks scrolling past placemarking posts!

Inside the NHS tribunal that has reignited the trans debate

www.thetimes.com/article/bc8896d8-a725-42a2-a042-344e98de02c0?shareToken=1e6bb655bf0ccec6358245157bc10042

Not keen on that article at all. Uses she & her for Upton all the way through though there’s no requirement to do so and that final line

“it’s a case of she said/she said”

fuck - and I can’t say this too clearly - off

I also note on passing that Shaun Lintern the Sunday times health journalist who is usually over everything topical in health has not made a single mention of this case.

Not a great article, with quite a few inaccuracies.

They do however concede that Upton admits the rapist line was not one Sandy used, which is good.

The she her and she said/she said just grates at this point.

Thanks for explaining. I've just noticed that bookmarking doesn't seem to work for me anyway

There have been a lot of very good articles written about this case, but that’s not one of them.

What an incoherent piece! Serves to inform no-one and just contribute to the muddle.
archive version of Times piece: https://archive.is/wip/QTnZf

Upton could not give a date for the second incident and had made no complaint at the time. The handwritten notes justifying Peggie’s suspension made no mention of patient safety.
Searle, Upton’s supervisor, was said to have immediately taken her aside after the complaint and condemned Peggie’s behaviour, before any investigation or even speaking to Peggie.

The problem is that DU has been dishonest, isn't it? And that Fife have been inconsistent and have withheld evidence from the court and from their own lawyer the idiots.

We don't trust DU's words so we need to see more evidence. Nobody is asking SP for more docs because she has been coherent and to the point throughout her statement and cross examination. It's so much easier to be consistent when you're telling the truth.

Sorry, I’m sure this has been clarified earlier before I was aware of the threads, but could anyone please clarify what the above means in reality?

It says at the bottom of the previous registration 'not on the register, cannot practice as doctor', I want to ask questions about that.

What does this mean? Have there been previous complaints or interactions with GMC?

Thanks.

@newtt: I think this connects to your question whether it's a fact that DU is a man.

DU changed his registration with the General Medical Council. They made a new entry with the name Beth Upton and added to the old one that the registration is not valid (anymore).

His license that he got through graduating medicine was in the name of Theodore.

On the other hand, it seems from the tribunal, that DU does not have a GRC (yet). So they changed his license despite him legally being a man. DU is not registrated as Beth Upton, female.

So his license does not match his legal status.

A typo:

DU is now registrated as Beth Upton, female.

Bookmarking works for me if I go to the page of the bookmarked post. I've used it for the first time in these threads, and I've got my settings as 100 posts per page (so max 10 pages per thread)

"Watch thread" does everything you need it to, except I think navigate to the exact post you were last reading if there have been loads posted since.

You can unwatch a thread with one click too, when you want to stop following it.

NC - it's a measure of the power the DU has been able to exercise
It says at the bottom of the previous registration 'not on the register, cannot practice as doctor', I want to ask questions about that.

I had not thought this through before

I'm a doctor,
I do something really really bad to a patient or patients,
I change my gender through self-affirmation,
I go off to practice somewhere else
And as far as the GMC are concerned I am a new person, there is no link to my previous self
My gut tells me this leaves my patients somewhat at risk?

I think that the SNP did - moving towards the left with economic policies supercharged them - until they got all arrogant and thought that people would vote for them whatever they did. That didn't work out so well for them

"Live as a female" in the UK means:

• Growing your hair long;
• Wearing dresses and skirts;
• Wearing make-up;
• Speaking in a soft, high voice;
• Wearing a padded bra;
• Having a 'girl name';
• Using female pronouns;
• Covering your Adam's apple with a scarf;
• Trying to disguise male-pattern baldness with a comb-over;
• Shaving your face twice a day;
• Plucking your eyebrows;
• Shaving your legs;
• Being more likely to be in low paid work than men;
• Being more likely to have fewer savings than men;
• Being more likely to be in debt than men;
• Being more likely to do unpaid labour and caring than men;
• Being more likely to be domestically and/or financially abused than men;
• Being more likely to have a smaller pension than men;
• Being more likely to take a financial hit as a parent than men;
• Being more likely to be under-represented politically than men;
• Being less likely to hold positions of power & influence than men;
• Being more likely to be talked over in meetings;
• Being less likely to have your ideas listened to at work;
• etc, etc, etc feel free to add more!

Wow. That is so spot on!
Thank you for posting