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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 18:06

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

OP posts:
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15
AlisonDonut · 15/02/2025 10:06

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 15/02/2025 10:01

I mean, yes. That's it exactly.

Newtt · 15/02/2025 10:07

AlisonDonut · 15/02/2025 09:59

The only thing we know is that Sandie's solicitor wrote the letter and then the discussion dissolved into 'it was/wasn't even an investigation' and hasn't been brought up again.

I think the woman that wrote it is the one sat next to NC [she is certainly on the lgeal team] so I'm sure they won't be forgetting about it. If needed.

No idea if the 'investigation' was ever completed, no.

If there wasn't an investigation, why is there an employment tribunal?

why does the employment tribunal not require the conclusion of an investigation so it has something on which to base the tribunal?

  • i.e. SP saying something like 'The investigation found this based on this.... I disagree with this and dispute this...'

Boring facts like, what HR found and suggested...

I'm even more confused about this farce now.

The fact that IB seems to have played an important role in it's progression when she is by all account a relatively junior member of staff?

FannyCann · 15/02/2025 10:07

I should have done it before but now is a good time to remind everyone that the reason these policies are so embedded throughout the NHS is via the Rainbow Badge scheme, funded by NHSE (and, I think NHS Scotland north of the border).

There are numerous FOIs around this on the What Do They Know website, as every hospital that engaged with the accreditation scheme was sent an FOI.
Some of the hospitals supplied supporting policy documents, which confirm the findings of the assessment.

Here for example from the "Transgender Staff Support Policy" of Mersey and West Lancashire Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. Basically as per this particular trust policy, it is the norm that trans staff use the facilities of their acquired gender. Really the only surprise is there haven't been more of these cases.

I believe the Darlington Nurses case will be later this year? (Not sure where that case is up to, I wonder if it would be helpful for them to await the outcome of this one, which obviously would mean a considerable delay). I'm sure someone here is up to date on that case.

As another aside I note the Genuine Occupational Requirements section below - I may be misunderstanding it, but it suggests that where a person is employed in a post requiring a particular sex, if that person transitions then they will be redeployed elsewhere. I suppose, within healthcare, there aren't many jobs that specifically require a man, I certainly can't think of one. But where the requirement is specifically for a woman, eg female radiographer for mammography service, they will be redeployed if they transition to man.
I'm guessing these cases are vanishingly rare so I doubt it has been put to the test, but it's certainly an interesting policy rule.

"6.2.1 Genuine Occupational Requirements
In the vast majority of cases, the gender of a worker is of no relevance to their ability to do a
particular job. However, the Equality Act 2010 does allow for an exception where being of a
particular sex is an “occupational requirement” of that post. If this is the case for an employee
transitioning at work, they will be redeployed into a suitable position.

6.2.2 Uniforms and Dress Code
If a uniform is in place for the role, managers will ensure that the trans employee has access
to the uniform that is most appropriate to their acquired gender from the date of transition.
Managers are required to be flexible and will support the preferences of the trans person
wherever possible. Trans staff have the right to comply with any dress codes in a way that
reflects their gender identity and gender expression.

6.3 Toilets and Changing Facilities
The use of toilets and other gendered facilities can sometime be a concern for trans
individuals, particularly during the early stages of transition. The usual point for changing to
use facilities for their acquired gender will be the day the employee starts coming to work in
their acquired gender.

Trans individuals must be supported to use all facilities designated for their acquired gender.
It is not appropriate to request that a trans person uses separate facilities or accessible
(disabled) toilet facilities (unless they have a disability requiring this). It is also never
acceptable to require someone undergoing gender reassignment to use toilets or other
facilities designated for members of their birth gender."

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rainbow_badge_accreditation_8/response/2075170/attach/html/16/Transgender%20Staff%20Support%20Policy.pdf.html

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rainbow_badge_accreditation_8#incoming-2075170

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 10:09

venuscat · 15/02/2025 09:53

I have been following the threads on the tribunal and would appreciate it if somebody can clarify the following for myself.

  1. Am I correct in saying that neither of the Fife NHS investigations into Sandie ever got to
    the conclusion stage in the sense that there was a verdict issued to Sandie? ie. Did the the instigation of the ET action by Sandie put the actual investigations on hold?

  2. Related to the above, I am sure I read somewhere that Sandie's solicitor pointed out the current law to the investigator (Not sure which one) that Fife NHS was applying the law incorrectly in respect of single sex changing rooms - Can anyone clarify this and what happened when Fifie NHS received these advices.

Thank You

My understanding is that the investigation has not been concluded and is still ongoing - I would assume it has been held or stayed now that the complaint has reached the ET.
I am fairly certain that NC has not stated that the Law has been applied incorrectly or at least interpreted incorrectly by a man who asserts his right to be there because he says he is something which he is not.

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 10:09

DeanElderberry · 15/02/2025 10:00

To me the gender debate is entangled with a clash between reality - sexed bodies - and an imagined gendered identity that many of us do not have.

Suppose an issue arose in a hospital in Scotland where the two parties both had an identity based on ideas, principles, a sense of self and a sense of community. One a Catholic, one a Protestant.

The class and connections in this could work out either way - Masons, Orange Order, versus Catholic charity groups. Either or both could be well-placed on the hospitals board.

Both Doctor and nurse in this the same sex. The Doctor committed to their belief system and using their connections to further their own ends, the nurse aware of their roots but putting patients and the job first.

If the row was about territory, football scarfs, leaking into views on reproductive rights and who gets which days off in a busy schedule with a side order of assumptions about class and education, and it threatened to disrupt work. And the Doctor started to get vindictive and to invent fantasy situations that proved them right and the nurse wrong.

How, then would the hospital manage those people? Not realist versus believer, but believer versus believer?

It'd be dealt with like any other bullying/harassment case.

But Sandie would have the support of her union and Dr Upton wouldn't have a top down doctrine stating that he was not to be questioned.

Sandie has the legal question over failure to meet legal requirements behind her too, which your scenario wouldn't have.

It still could result in the Dr's status and influence meaning he was able to dominate - and perhaps unfairly win. Because it could become he said / she said.

But on the whole the power dynamics in this scenario would be very different. There are some things we know to be true (even if people don't want to admit to it) and that creates a very different situation.

This real life situation has a huge shadow of overreach and denial of reality hanging over it.

To my mind, it is a good old fashioned sexism, bullying and harassment in the workplace case from a senior colleague. It's just got the added enablement factors nailgunned on to the side of it, to try and make it look different.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 15/02/2025 10:10

Newtt · 15/02/2025 10:07

If there wasn't an investigation, why is there an employment tribunal?

why does the employment tribunal not require the conclusion of an investigation so it has something on which to base the tribunal?

  • i.e. SP saying something like 'The investigation found this based on this.... I disagree with this and dispute this...'

Boring facts like, what HR found and suggested...

I'm even more confused about this farce now.

The fact that IB seems to have played an important role in it's progression when she is by all account a relatively junior member of staff?

Employment tribunal can’t tell employers to do that.

AnnaMagnani · 15/02/2025 10:10

Loads of junior doctors are really in to this shit.

The hospital I work in is in a very working class, historically deprived area.

The junior doctors tend to have their pronouns on their name badges. I always want say 'Emily, do you think I ever had any doubt about your pronouns? And in what circumstance do you think a patient, who usually can't remember any of the staff, will use them?'

Mentioned the tribunal to the nurses today. They were all aware of it and furious. And had noticed the stupid pronoun badges.

Needspaceforlego · 15/02/2025 10:10

SqueakyDinosaur · 15/02/2025 09:04

Swerving slightly I listened to the Employment Law Matters podcast episode with NC recently (the one where she talks about her mother working at Bletchley Park). One of the things that struck me was that she is so posh that she had no idea who Bungle (the hippo on Rainbow) was. No ITV for little Naomi!

Bungle was be bear. George was the hippo.

FannyCann · 15/02/2025 10:10

Anyone wanting to know more about their own trust policies should take a look on WDTK, search for Rainbow Badge Accreditation report. Most trusts didn't supply supporting policies, but of course anyone can request them. The WDTK site is very easy to sign up to and use. You are meant to use your own name, but it is clear not everyone does, just make it a sensible pseudonym if you need to remain anonymous and you may need a new email address using that name.

Llamasarellovely · 15/02/2025 10:12

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 15/02/2025 10:01

NC's husband!

TimeForATerf · 15/02/2025 10:18

Thank you everyone for keeping these threads up to date, I have been glued since the tribunal started. I knew it was coming in advance and hoped the wonderful MN contributors wouldn't disappoint. I started following these cases on here first with Jo Phoenix then the ERCC tribunal but this one is off the scale.

Like most other people I am astonished at DU's beliefs, the way the IX has been completed and that clinical staff could have so much power for making decisions affecting Sandie's life, and then do it so badly. Aghast that they have so little regard for all their female staff due to their own cowardice.

I simply cannot wait for July. I sincerely hope that Sandie has some peace and respite in the coming months and that now her colleagues know what she has been through that she is supported in the workplace going forwards.

Rightsraptor · 15/02/2025 10:18

Am I the only one feeling a sense of anti climax today? I'd got so used to logging on and either watching the proceedings or following them here: now I feel quite bereft!

I recall from DrU's testimony that today is his 3oth birthday. They say that with age comes wisdom, so here's wishing that he gains some of that.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 15/02/2025 10:20

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 10:09

It'd be dealt with like any other bullying/harassment case.

But Sandie would have the support of her union and Dr Upton wouldn't have a top down doctrine stating that he was not to be questioned.

Sandie has the legal question over failure to meet legal requirements behind her too, which your scenario wouldn't have.

It still could result in the Dr's status and influence meaning he was able to dominate - and perhaps unfairly win. Because it could become he said / she said.

But on the whole the power dynamics in this scenario would be very different. There are some things we know to be true (even if people don't want to admit to it) and that creates a very different situation.

This real life situation has a huge shadow of overreach and denial of reality hanging over it.

To my mind, it is a good old fashioned sexism, bullying and harassment in the workplace case from a senior colleague. It's just got the added enablement factors nailgunned on to the side of it, to try and make it look different.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Upton is a Transvestite. Surely the entire Transgender movement, the insistence on incorrect use of pronouns etc can be seen now in the wider context of bullying, of imposing nonsense on others with a requirement of conformity to validate delusion? The observer observes reality and not the wishes of the subject person. I say as I observe, speak as I find like many others, and will not apologise for doing so.

Merrymouse · 15/02/2025 10:22

Is anyone else thinking that they really missed a trick by not getting a job in DEI?

AlisonDonut · 15/02/2025 10:22

Rightsraptor · 15/02/2025 10:18

Am I the only one feeling a sense of anti climax today? I'd got so used to logging on and either watching the proceedings or following them here: now I feel quite bereft!

I recall from DrU's testimony that today is his 3oth birthday. They say that with age comes wisdom, so here's wishing that he gains some of that.

I feel like I need a holiday by a pool and I don't even do holidays by the pool! I'm exhausted.

Sothatsalrighthen · 15/02/2025 10:24

Regarding patient safety and professional competence within medicine re. “G.I”, this is essential reading. A very good account to follow.

x.com/lascapigliata8/status/1890225775506313487?s=46&t=BRUxTjZ34agAPkVo-fi3zA

FannyCann · 15/02/2025 10:24

This FOI lists all the trusts engaging in the Rainbow badge scheme in 2022/23

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/nhs_rainbow_badge_project#incoming-2393958

And this one goes into the costs and the initial 40 trusts involved in 2020/21

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/cost_of_the_nhs_rainbow_badge_pr#incoming-2103218

BezMills · 15/02/2025 10:27

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 09:44

I'm going to quote this as it's such an important point and it's the one that locks into British politics over the last decade or so in multiple ways.

The employment tribunal, which will continue into the summer because of NHS Fife’s inability to produce essential documents in time, has not only exposed the nebulous nature of gender identity theory – that a human being can change their sex through sheer will – but the ingrained class divide at the heart of the NHS that also characterises the debate around gender.

Gender identity theory is largely a middle-class pursuit, a fake radicalism which doesn't bother its pretty little head with tackling the material causes of poverty and inequality. Instead, as feminist writer Sheila Jeffries argued in 2014, it is a social construct designed to maintain male dominance. And since its inception, the National Health Service has put the demands of the doctor class first before the needs of the largely working-class nursing and support staff.

Middle-class arrogance
Former Labour MSP Jenny Marra, who attended the tribunal over several days, said the evidence reeked of class and entitlement. She observed: "Middle-class arrogant male doctor breaches nurse's boundaries is not a new story. But this time the doctor is facing down the nurse with the backing of politicians and illegal guidelines drawn up by public sector officials who have been hoodwinked into betraying reality and the many working-class women at the frontline of our public services.”

It is not surprising that middle-class professionals, whether doctors, HR managers or even politicians, have found comfort in the simplistic politics of identity. How much easier it is to pin a trans ally badge on a set of scrubs or business suit than begin to tackle the centuries’ old structural issues that trap millions of women in low-paid jobs, poor housing and ill-health, often at risk of sexual violence and abuse.

Sandie didn't go to her union for support at a key moment. Why? Because she knew her union wouldn't support her on this issue.

Time and again we see this pattern of those with power and influence denying an issue and saying there's no evince of an issue.

But they also get to gate keep and decide what constitutes evidence and what doesn't - like Upton did.

I've said this on various themes over the years in various ways: absence of evidence does not indicate an absence of a problem. It might mean you just aren't quantifying something that might be starring you in the face and there's the temptation for those in power to be dismissive as a result. But it doesn't stop a problem if you deny it.

Some examples of this: my classic MN one - Bounty. The NHS denied there was an issue because they didn't have complaints even though if you looked in here there were hundreds. They were blind to the problem and didn't want to acknowledge it and they had a conflict of interest over it. They didn't want to acknowledge the inappropriateness of facilitating high pressure sales tactics in a ward setting nor how this raised questions over dubious consent through undue pressure.

Ditto maternity care across the board.

Then we have Brexit - and one of the things the leave campaign tapped into was this sense of public sector waste and this middle class prioritisation and punching down. Dominic Cummings had it firmly in his sights long before Elon has come along in the US to try to do the same. I think people are forgetting what happened here, has hugely influenced what has subsequently happened in the US not the other way round. Now that is starting to reverse some what. But the seeds of this, didn't come from the likes of Trump leading the way. There was a huge amount of public dissatisfaction and concern that the Leave campaign recognised could be tapped into and collectively become an anti status quo / anti establishment vote rather than actual being anything to the European Union as such.

Now despite having left the EU, many of the actual issues that led to people voting for Brexit have not even been looked at. That's why support for the Tories to 'deliver Brexit' has collapsed. Cos it never really was about leaving the EU in so many respects. And these underlying issues of discontent remain.

Labour isn't doing a great job of identifying this.

Gender identity or more correctly, EDI stuff was one of these issues. When you look at polling of world views for voters from the referendum a few of the startling things is how polarised views were between pro-brexit and anti-brexit voters on subjects relating to anything which falls broadly under the umbrella of progressive activism.

It's widely been put down to, by middle class types, as regressive and bigoted views.

In reality I think it's more complex than that - it's been a concern about virtue signalling and performative issues being prioritised to the neglect of practical everyday boring functional concerns with a hell of a lot of money spent on looking good rather than dealing with systematic problems people face daily but have been neglected.

And that's what has allowed the rise of Trump and the re-emergance of Farage.

And that's not going to go away.

That's why discussions over why we have EDI departments taking precedence over the legal department and acting against the HR department are important. And why looking at how inexperienced highly paid graduates who have been conditioned by ideology over understanding of matters of law which protect junior members of staff are important.

What is apparent is despite EDI supposedly being about recognising the invisibility and lack of voice of certain groups the reality is EDI has successfully been used as a way to silence others at the expense of actual equality. It's been used to preserve the status and power of the middle classes and their beliefs over the working class rather than for what it claims to stand for.

Now I'm middle class and I was pro remain. And I wouldn't vote for Farage (or Trump if I could) in a million years. Because I know and see what they are.

But I have been saying a lot of this stuff about class since before the referendum. And it's only becoming more and more apparent in terms of a failure to listen to people without power about the problems and concerns they face on a daily basis.

This is why gender v sex isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. Because underneath all of it is the sheer level of sexism and sexual abuse based on sex that women see and feel and experience on a daily basis.

The trans argument sits on the corner point of class issues and sex based issues and outside typical left v right politics but very much within authoritarian existing power v incoming authoritarian power battles. That's why it's so pivotal. It has implications and ramifications far beyond 'just wanting to pee'. It is about who controls access to women in many respects. And women are not being allowed to say 'oh well actually I'm fighting for myself and to hell with both groups trying to use this area to control me'. And the media facilitate this dynamic because ultimately they are not separate from authority because they ARE that authority.

There's various grass roots groups out there on all manner of subjects who have sprung up in this climate of dissatisfaction and these two new centres of power are competing for ownership of them.

This is why I find individual voices and the grass roots stuff that MN is very good at allowing to flourish independently so important and compelling.

I think this Scotsman article is so hugely important for all these reasons. It gets to grips with many aspects of how and why we are at the point we are.

I post in the hope that it helps to get others to have the penny drop in terms of how it all joins up and fits into ongoing much broader political changes.

Unless Labour sees this problem as it is, not as they want it to be, it will haunt them until the next election and it WILL cost them dear. To put it bluntly constituency demographics don't favour them well enough to sit on their hands and do nothing.

For whatever reason that motivates him, Streeting sees this very clearly indeed and I find that fascinating in its own right. His support for the Darlington Nurses (note Darlington) is as tactical as it is sane.

Great post

RedToothBrush · 15/02/2025 10:28

Crouton19 · 15/02/2025 10:06

@RedToothBrush I agree with that but would just pause on the use of 'middle class' here there and everywhere (not just on Mumsnet). It is a term so vague and a category so large as to be meaningless, particularly in this century where electricians earn more than teachers and class is very often self-identified. I wonder if there is a more accurate term, as we debate the usage of man, TW or TIM?

It's technically your social grade classifications (this is what the like of YouGov and political parties use in polling and policy making).

These are termed as followed by the ONS:

Social Grade has six possible classifications (A, B, C1, C2, D and E). Census data uses a combined, four-way classification:
AB: Higher and intermediate managerial, administrative and professional occupations
C1: Supervisory, clerical, and junior managerial, administrative and professional occupations
C2: Skilled manual occupations
DE: Semi-skilled and unskilled manual occupations; unemployed and lowest grade occupations

These also tend to reflect educational patterns, but not quite so tightly (older people might be higher grades but have worked up through the ranks and thus don't have a degree). Today you tend to need a degree by default to reach the higher grade. This is exacerbating issues with group think and lack of representation of lower groups at decision making level.

Interestingly you see patterns around these classes and readership of different newspapers and social media. Media tends to reflect the views of its grouping rather than being more lead by a singular individual (despite what people think), because they become cauldrons of exchange within the group. (To give an example - Trump is not always leading - he reads others and is led by others and then it amplifies. But his reading material comes from a restricted pool of ideas within a certain socio economic bubble.)

I use middle class v working class as it better understood here than using the above.

Those groups ARE the basis on political decision making though. It's combined with age, sex and location to build models for how voters will respond. Then multipled by how numerous those people/groups are.

Gender Identity is tanking with a lot of those groups and has not got good constituency broadness.

It's an absolute stinker at the ballot box for Labour.

RayonSunrise · 15/02/2025 10:29

Merrymouse · 15/02/2025 10:22

Is anyone else thinking that they really missed a trick by not getting a job in DEI?

Not at all. I've been developing and improving what I do for 20 years now, and I'm looking forward to continuing to do so. I don't think DEI is going to last quite so long, which is a shame as the not-actively-discriminating-against-people side of it was genuinely good.

Violetparis · 15/02/2025 10:30

Jerabilis · 15/02/2025 09:23

I did that and complained to HR that the answer wasn't consistent with the law.

Got a very waffly answer but they did say that the training was under review. Might need to take that up again.

That's interesting. I mentioned it to my line manager who agreed it was a load of rubbish but we didn't take it further. If it's still the same next time I have to complete I will email HR.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 15/02/2025 10:30

Rightsraptor · 15/02/2025 10:18

Am I the only one feeling a sense of anti climax today? I'd got so used to logging on and either watching the proceedings or following them here: now I feel quite bereft!

I recall from DrU's testimony that today is his 3oth birthday. They say that with age comes wisdom, so here's wishing that he gains some of that.

Not the only one no. I'm also feeling bereft.

I also feel for Sandie. Closure must feel so close yet so far away. I can only imagine the worry going through her mind.

Equally I am hopeful that if this goes in Sandies favour it is a precedential case for women, but I sadly fear that it's just a tiny step and many more cases will have to be brought forward if we're to be taken seriously.

I've had a similar experience to Sandie, except my sector was communications, and I didn't find my voice. I wish I had. I didn't believe there could be such a community of support back then, and that's what TRAs rely on. That their workplace allyship remains permitted whilst women's is not. Even our trade union is captured.

I don't want to miss the July hearing and I don't ever want people to stop talking about this and making sure it is heard loud and clear that we won't be silenced.

SerafinasGoose · 15/02/2025 10:32

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 21:03

I agree and she won't be the only woman in the UK who has voiced support for Trump / Farage / Brexit / Reform for a whole variety of reasons (the main one I hear when I'm canvassing for Labour is that the liberal/left have abandoned ordinary people and their concerns). Most of the people I talk to are decent, hardworking, law-abiding citizens but they're angry with mainstream politicians so they listen to other voices. I suspect many of the millions who recently voted for Trump are similar.

I don't like Sandie's political views but I do like that she can be 'stern', opinionated and courageous. Even if there were nothing whatsoever to like about her, she'd still have my support in standing up for her rights as a woman to a single-sex changing room at work.

The thread has moved far on from this post - I'm following but missing large sections owing to the speed of the threads - but this got me thinking. Predictably, ED adopted the time-honoured TRA measure of 'aligning' feminist views with the so-called 'alt right'. This is such a lazy, uncritical regurgitation of lobby-group propaganda.

The US voted for Trump. The US wanted what he had to offer. There's a clear swing toward Reform in the UK. There's a discernible move toward right-wing views amongst younger people - working-class males in particular. As a society we ignore this at our peril, because this is the way the far right have historically come to power - through legitimate means, enabled by a disgruntled populace.

The 'Left' (which doesn't much resemble the left anymore but that's another thread) has walked right into this. If you shout down even the mildest of dissent as 'bigotry', start firing people, suspending people, harrassing and threatening them in their workplace a la Kathleen Stock, intimidate them outside their own homes as per JKR, then sooner or later people will rebel.

TRAs are not paying attention to their Overlords, Marx and Foucault. You can't keep people down like this for an indefinite period of time by merely oppressing them. You have to make them want to comply with what society is offering them, or sooner or later they will rebel. Then there'll be a revolution. The despots will be overthrown. Simple dialectics, and this one's coming to fruition right now.

Into this explosive mix walks Sandie Peggie. Of course she's going to agree with this particular stance of Trump's, because in a rare twist of fate it benefits women, who have long been pissed off and angry that their rights have been trampled over by this aggressive lobby.

IMO what we saw yesterday was an effective piece of lawyering. The motive for victimising Peggie has now been established and the hostility to her revealed. In any event, Trump is a clear red herring. UK citizens can't be 'supporters' of Trump, because Trump has no political jurisdiction in the UK, and we have no vote in the US.

As ever, with the TRA lobby (which ED is quoting to the letter whether or not she's a member), it's all wind and hot air.

Sothatsalrighthen · 15/02/2025 10:36

AlisonDonut · 15/02/2025 10:06

I mean, yes. That's it exactly.

“You’re a carbon based human and I’m a silicone based human”…

BezMills · 15/02/2025 10:36

"The usual point for changing to
use facilities for their acquired gender will be the day the employee starts coming to work in their acquired gender"

As in, shave and a skirt kind of thing

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