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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
nauticant · 12/02/2025 17:39

Following on from my request, here's a critical part of the cross-examination containing many of the key phrases:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1888963159676833812

OP posts:
NebulousDog · 12/02/2025 17:40

The Baroness has had a reply from the GMC.

Although their register record Drs as Male or Female, it actually means "Gender". Only the GMC know the link back to the deadname.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 17:40

TimeForATerf · 12/02/2025 17:30

Presumably with no enhancements and given she worked two night shifts a week would have seen a reduction in her pay since suspension?

This would depend on her contract. It should be on full pay so if there were regular contractual enhancements I think they should be included.

I guess, but don't know, that they will be otherwise that would have formed part of the claim against the second respondent, either on the basis of breach of contract/ unlawful suspension or on the basis of detriment/ victimisation, it may come up when it comes to compensation should she win.

I haven't seen the full claim by SP so it may be in there.

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 17:40

In the interim I will turn my attention to the case of Faye Russell-Caldicott who was seeking support on these pages and also to that of Anna Goodwin, the case against who begins on 7 April 2025.

I have yet to learn about Faye's case, but Anna is Chairwoman of the English Pool and Billiards Federation, the only Federation not to allow men masquerading as women in whatever guise to cheat in womens sports and deny other women the rights of of participation. You can read all about the example of Lynne Pinches (sister of Barry Pinches, a successful snooker player in his day) on Google who has refused to play a TiM who misrepresents his sex by adopting the name Harriet Haynes.

I'll put a couple of threads up and they would be massively grateful for your support.

Thanks for the company, the laughs, the banter - we got through that horror show together, and again...... apologies on behalf of all men for what that bloke is putting Sandie through...... what a twerp.

EasternStandard · 12/02/2025 17:42

Szygy · 12/02/2025 16:44

I’m never going to catch up, but place-marking anyway 🤷‍♀️

Same thanks to @nauticant

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:42

SpinUp2 · 12/02/2025 17:39

Why is KS possibly going to be added as 3rd respondent?

Because, through late disclosure (and of course we haven't seen the documents, but based on what was said) she sent an email to 17 staff which pre-judged the issue, maybe referred to the changing room incident as a "hate incident", it isn't quite clear. Adding her as a respondent, as I understand, ensures that she has to turn up (it isn't voluntary any more) and indicates that she may have done something wrong.

HootyMcBoobs · 12/02/2025 17:44

It occurs to me that the usual suspects who perform the ubiquitous finger waggings and drive-by scoldings, have been notable absent from these 15 threads.

Why is that?

Could it be that the good Doctor is a pink step too far down the gender rabbit-hole even for THEM?

Never again will they be able to wail "there's NO trans women who think they are ACTUAL women, and there's no trans women who deny biological sex, and there's no trans women who refuse to believe they are actually male, etc etc".
Here we have proof that they just don't want to quietly "live" as the opposite sex, and they don't "just want to pee".
They want 100% capitulation over language, beliefs and behaviour. Nothing less.

This case is doing them absolutely no favours and they know it.

SameyMcNameChange · 12/02/2025 17:46

I agree with @RedToothBrush that it is massively revealing that DU was afraid that Sandie Peggie would 'organise against him'. It is on a par with 'she ignored me because she is transphobic'. He hasn't produced any evidence for why he should think that. In point of fact she did not 'organise against him' and KS seems to have 'organised for him against her'.

I know I keep banging on about this but he absolutely does himself no favours when he keeps on saying 'I wanted an apology' 'She was transphobic' 'She is bigoted' etc. Because numerous courts have said emphatically that holding the beliefs she does, and saying what she has said, is fine. It is not transphobic. It is the holding of a different (protected) point of view. AND they have said that calling someone bigoted for expressing those views (and admitting there is no way that they could express those views without DU thinking they were bigoted) is bullying/harrassment.

Merrymouse · 12/02/2025 17:46

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:32

In mentioning it to my DS (adult but only just) - who is not really GC, way too inclined to see sex as an inconvenient temporary thing that science may sort out in due course - I emphasised "he says he's biologically female" and then my impression that he had attempted to intimidate and dominate NC, and that therefore, my view was it was far more likely he had done the same to SP than that it had been the other way round. FWIW.

Much easier for men to think like this, because it all seems so much more abstract.

I thought there was a quite relevant article in the guardian this week.

https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/2025/feb/10/urogynecologist-childbirth-interview

Particularly "It’s a fantasy to think that you’re going to shove a person out of a tiny hole … and nothing is going to be different"

All the science that can control the consequences of being a person that might one day have to shove a person out of a tiny hole - contraception, medical care - and laws - maternity rights, equality rights - can be taken away.

Prolapse, tearing, pain: a urogynecologist on what you should know before giving birth

Dr Jocelyn Fitzgerald, who specializes in disorders of the pelvic floor, is ‘begging women to learn’ the physical risks and changes that accompany childbirth

https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/2025/feb/10/urogynecologist-childbirth-interview

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:46

hollyblueivy · 12/02/2025 17:37

@fanOfBen That's is concerning for women, or children that may be in these spaces. I wonder what the actual companies that run these places have as their policy. Even if there is a policy that stops men from using the space in whatever terminology that best enables understanding (Cis / literal / trans etc) would DU abide by those rules. Also more widely not just DU but any other man with the same thoughts and feelings as DU.

That is kind of the whole point, yes. Most changing rooms, unlike this one, have the problem that issues with them are going to involve both offenders and complainers who are only there very occasionally, which makes it tricky to litigate about. If we could get it clear in law that female changing rooms are for females only, that would be HUGE.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 12/02/2025 17:47

Tallisker · 12/02/2025 17:29

Why has his two-hour drive home at Christmas now morphed into a 50 minute one?

Must have been because the roads are so jam packed full at 1am on Xmas morning that his usual 50 minute commute took an age.

It's really hard when someone keeps leaving their reindeer to free roam allover the roads.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 17:49

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 17:24

DU: me by toilets, she presumably, must be between me and door, me and the lockers, in the middle

JR: You were asked when first reported re resus incident. You can see here you describing it to the investigation?

When DU answers questions like this his testimony reads like a detective surveying the scene after a crime and trying to reconstruct what happened based on the aftermath.

The answers do not sound like the recalled memories of someone who was actually there.

No they dont! , if he was as frightened and upset etc as he claimed by the interaction and bearing in mind he's a doctor, allegedly, his recall of that interaction and who was there would be etched for EVER in minute detail in his brain.

Motorina · 12/02/2025 17:49

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 12/02/2025 16:30

Can you get out of attending ET as a respondent if you're off sick? Surely not as many people would just always pull sickies if they didn't want to show up

No - you have to request an adjournment and supply robust medical evidence that you are unable to engage in proceedings and/or instruct solicitors. A standard GP sick note is highly unlikely to be sufficient.

(Apologies if someone’s already replied - I am many pages behind.)

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 12/02/2025 17:50

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:16

Does anyone have a link to a good summary of the Gillian Philip case(s), specifically to a summary of whichever part of the process it was that involved this judge? I keep seeing the one tweet, but I don't remember much about the case.

Gillian Philip has a chapter in The Women Who Wouldn't Wheesht but it doesn't talk about her court case. She lost a tribunal on the grounds that as a book author she wasn't an employee, she later appealed but lost the appeal.

This Spectator article is a reasonable summary https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-standing-up-for-jk-rowling-destroyed-one-authors-career/

Datun · 12/02/2025 17:51

The chromosomes thing is irritating, too.

He's just told entire world he's a biological female. I have no doubt that he said something similar to Sandie. I'm a woman, I have every right to be here.

I believe she said she didn't talk about chromosomes. But even if she did, so fucking what?

How else is one going to refute that? You would, of course, need to start defining what sex is.

EasternStandard · 12/02/2025 17:53

Datun · 12/02/2025 17:51

The chromosomes thing is irritating, too.

He's just told entire world he's a biological female. I have no doubt that he said something similar to Sandie. I'm a woman, I have every right to be here.

I believe she said she didn't talk about chromosomes. But even if she did, so fucking what?

How else is one going to refute that? You would, of course, need to start defining what sex is.

Yeh exactly. What can women talk about to maintain basic reality

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 17:55

SameyMcNameChange · 12/02/2025 17:46

I agree with @RedToothBrush that it is massively revealing that DU was afraid that Sandie Peggie would 'organise against him'. It is on a par with 'she ignored me because she is transphobic'. He hasn't produced any evidence for why he should think that. In point of fact she did not 'organise against him' and KS seems to have 'organised for him against her'.

I know I keep banging on about this but he absolutely does himself no favours when he keeps on saying 'I wanted an apology' 'She was transphobic' 'She is bigoted' etc. Because numerous courts have said emphatically that holding the beliefs she does, and saying what she has said, is fine. It is not transphobic. It is the holding of a different (protected) point of view. AND they have said that calling someone bigoted for expressing those views (and admitting there is no way that they could express those views without DU thinking they were bigoted) is bullying/harrassment.

I have been wondering today if Trans within workplaces like the NHS has a parallel in Mao's Cultural Revolution - the young denouncing the old, the use of mob tactics, unquestioning belief in the new rules, attempts to stamp out the 'old' ways. Maybe a bit tenuous

NotAComputerPerson · 12/02/2025 17:55

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 17:24

It is really weird that JRs gone down this avenue I agree.

It only seeks to highlight Upton had a mentality of feeling it was 'either her or me and it isn't going to be me', and all that follows stems from this - and Upton did everything to orchestrate this. Not the other way around.

Not only this, but it was all about a theorectical what she MIGHT do. Not what she was ACTUALLY doing. Its thought policing in nature.

He was pre-judging her.

Y'know, some might surmise this as 'prejudice' given thats the word that stems from pre-judging.

I fail to see how this helps the defence case in any way. It looks like a massive own goal. I don't get it.

The reason she has done that is to make the Tribunal panel reluctant to find Upton guilty of harassment because that could jeopardise his career.

She’s playing the Promising Young Man card.

FiveBarGate · 12/02/2025 17:56

nauticant · 12/02/2025 17:23

May I ask a favour? I'd imagine a lot of us will discussing this case with friends. There's too much to discuss, but there are certainly highlights. What, in the view of the hivemind here, were the stand-outs from Upton's testimony? The ones I've jotted down, in no particular order, are:

  • During cross-examination Upton refused to engage with a large number of questions because they contained perfectly normal terms he said he wouldn't recognise, like "woman".
  • From an earlier thread: "The top of the peak for me today has been Upton's slimy admittance that he believes he has the right to perform an intimate examination on a seriously unwell female patient who has already requested same sex care unless that patient refuses him personally."
  • Biological sex isn't a thing, it's a nebulous dog whistle.
  • He's female, and a biological female.
  • The attempt to throw uncertainty that babies are made by the combination of components from a male person and a female person. (But I don't recall his specific way of expressing his very surprising view.)
  • That he might give medical treatment to people according to their gender identity rather than their sex.
  • He made complaints about the nurse hurting his feelings and also about potentially career-ending fitness to practice issues, but only made notes for the former.
  • The triviality of the "hate incidents".
  • The triviality of the "fitness to practice incidents".

@nauticant I think for the unpeaked it's important to remember some of the basics here.

Most people I've spoken to who are only vaguely aware of this case are shocked to learn

  • how recent the change to 'woman' status was in regard to his use of the female changing rooms (and that he married as a man so shortly before it)
  • what acts of aggression actually constitute. That standing outside or simply questioning the right to change there IS the abuse. Most people seem to imagine she must have been yelling things down corridors at him repeatedly to get here.

All your other points are great for those who have made the top of the slope but there are so many who think 'well if they've lived their whole adult life as a woman '....
Or that he was told to change with the men and not just 'not in the female only' area and did not request a third space.

AAT65 · 12/02/2025 17:56

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:42

Because, through late disclosure (and of course we haven't seen the documents, but based on what was said) she sent an email to 17 staff which pre-judged the issue, maybe referred to the changing room incident as a "hate incident", it isn't quite clear. Adding her as a respondent, as I understand, ensures that she has to turn up (it isn't voluntary any more) and indicates that she may have done something wrong.

And probably also the very late disclosure last night of the e mail to Upton about the inquiry that wasn't an inquiry.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:56

HootyMcBoobs · 12/02/2025 17:44

It occurs to me that the usual suspects who perform the ubiquitous finger waggings and drive-by scoldings, have been notable absent from these 15 threads.

Why is that?

Could it be that the good Doctor is a pink step too far down the gender rabbit-hole even for THEM?

Never again will they be able to wail "there's NO trans women who think they are ACTUAL women, and there's no trans women who deny biological sex, and there's no trans women who refuse to believe they are actually male, etc etc".
Here we have proof that they just don't want to quietly "live" as the opposite sex, and they don't "just want to pee".
They want 100% capitulation over language, beliefs and behaviour. Nothing less.

This case is doing them absolutely no favours and they know it.

Yep - there is is again - the empathy gap

Not being able to believe that if there is a loophole that there will not be someone who finds and uses it - for purposes completely different to what was expected.

I think that DU is absolutely marvellous. Maybe an almost perfect Respondent and Peggie/Hospital setting ideal as the claimant. DU will (hopefully) go down in feminist history as an icon 😂

Very fitting for a biological woman!

nauticant · 12/02/2025 17:56

I have been wondering today if Trans within workplaces like the NHS has a parallel in Mao's Cultural Revolution - the young denouncing the old, the use of mob tactics, unquestioning belief in the new rules, attempts to stamp out the 'old' ways. Maybe a bit tenuous

This isn't tenuous. It's spot on and it's been spotted by others. There are many parallels.

OP posts:
NebulousHog · 12/02/2025 17:57

I see DU as being so detrimental to the trans population; if a woman by statement, why any need for enhanced trans healthcare surgical services? Why any need for trans man to have access to gynaecological care and regular smear tests?

This view detriments all. Apart from men who confirm with their sex.

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