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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
nauticant · 12/02/2025 17:23

May I ask a favour? I'd imagine a lot of us will discussing this case with friends. There's too much to discuss, but there are certainly highlights. What, in the view of the hivemind here, were the stand-outs from Upton's testimony? The ones I've jotted down, in no particular order, are:

  • During cross-examination Upton refused to engage with a large number of questions because they contained perfectly normal terms he said he wouldn't recognise, like "woman".
  • From an earlier thread: "The top of the peak for me today has been Upton's slimy admittance that he believes he has the right to perform an intimate examination on a seriously unwell female patient who has already requested same sex care unless that patient refuses him personally."
  • Biological sex isn't a thing, it's a nebulous dog whistle.
  • He's female, and a biological female.
  • The attempt to throw uncertainty that babies are made by the combination of components from a male person and a female person. (But I don't recall his specific way of expressing his very surprising view.)
  • That he might give medical treatment to people according to their gender identity rather than their sex.
  • He made complaints about the nurse hurting his feelings and also about potentially career-ending fitness to practice issues, but only made notes for the former.
  • The triviality of the "hate incidents".
  • The triviality of the "fitness to practice incidents".
OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 17:24

Re the crowdfunder for Sandie

https://x.com/PaulaBear73/status/1889585606235488370?t=AdsQJPuFL8zPvyzKhTzhKg&s=19

"Hello all. A quick note to say I’m in contact with Sandie’s daughter Nicole & will post s/shots of receipt & transfer of funds when crowdfunder ends. "

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15
SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 17:24

DU: me by toilets, she presumably, must be between me and door, me and the lockers, in the middle

JR: You were asked when first reported re resus incident. You can see here you describing it to the investigation?

When DU answers questions like this his testimony reads like a detective surveying the scene after a crime and trying to reconstruct what happened based on the aftermath.

The answers do not sound like the recalled memories of someone who was actually there.

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 17:24

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 17:11

I totally agree with this analysis and I thought it was strange that JR went into this line of questioning because NC had already put it to him that he would need to get her out for 'breaking the spell' in her XX yesterday. I may be paraphrasing with the phrase breaking the spell but it was something along those lines.

Basically any non compliant woman must be removed it is essential to the immersive role play that he is forcing women to go along with.

It is really weird that JRs gone down this avenue I agree.

It only seeks to highlight Upton had a mentality of feeling it was 'either her or me and it isn't going to be me', and all that follows stems from this - and Upton did everything to orchestrate this. Not the other way around.

Not only this, but it was all about a theorectical what she MIGHT do. Not what she was ACTUALLY doing. Its thought policing in nature.

He was pre-judging her.

Y'know, some might surmise this as 'prejudice' given thats the word that stems from pre-judging.

I fail to see how this helps the defence case in any way. It looks like a massive own goal. I don't get it.

FarriersGirl · 12/02/2025 17:25

IIRC NC was saying at the start of this pm that she would be seeking an order to the BMA to release the email traffic pertaining to this case during the adjournment. I do hope so.

NotAGentleReminder · 12/02/2025 17:28

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 12/02/2025 17:23

"DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me"

This is DARVO in plain sight. He's describing his own actions - rallying colleagues/union to his cause, allegedly making untrue allegations about SP - career ending allegations. The email KS sent out is the 'smoking gun' on that. He ramped up the hysteria to a level that set KS's 'ally credentials' off & she took that up with gusto, to the point NC is stating caused detriment to SP. KS has gotten herself pulled into this as another respondent as a result.

This is what all the 'bystander' training is about. It's no longer acceptable to just nod & make sympathetic noises when faced with the likes of Upton. If you don't show willing to get involved (inappropriately in KS's case by the sound of it), the risk of being pulled in as somehow complicit in causing further upset/distress is present.

This is all absolutely madness. And no doubt reinforced within the trust by a highly paid DEI 'specialist' pulling strings in the background.

In his mind saying he is a man is an untrue allegation

Merrymouse · 12/02/2025 17:29

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 17:07

From earlier

JR: You refer just here to a concern you had, what was that?
DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me
JR: [reads] concern she would oust you from dept?
DU: that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

Let us reflect on this tiny exchange as its really quite the reveal, isn't it now?

Upton didn't want ANY woman organising and collectively stating that the presence of a males in the women's changing room was appropriate and they felt harassed and intimitated by it. Sandie just happened to be the one not having any of it, on this particular occasion. And that just wouldn't wash for Dr Upton. He wanted to ensure she was unable to ask too many inconvient questions or check on how other women were also feeling. It was preemptive and preventive. Some might call this 'controlling'.

Instead Upton wants now, to frame women objecting as propagating 'untrue allegations' rather than simply having a problem with feeling like this was potentially vouyerism and an infringment on their privacy and dignity. Because Upton isn't the same sex and one woman wanted same sex facilities to prevent, errrrr any potential for there to be any vouyerism or infringements on her privacy and dignity.

He sought to isolate Sandy from being able to speak to colleagues about how this made her feel vulnerable and instead sort to frame her speaking with other females as 'harassment'. Isolating someone, is hmm, somewhat 'controlling'.

Remember this theorectically includes preventing Sandie being able to talk to, say you or me - we are all women who might agree with Sandie and might wish to talk to about how this makes US feel. God forbid, one woman might agree with her and this might form a consensus amongst other women. Women talking about their own feelings must be verboten. This is about shutting up ALL women who have a concept of feeling uncomfortable and have the sheer audicity to want privacy and dignity at this point.

So yeah, I wanted to point out, how obviously spectatularly well this intention to preemptively stop Sandie from talking to other women is working out for Upton at this stage in preceedings.

We are now what, well over 14,000 posts on MN on this plan, as well as huge amount on other parts of social media and numerous articles in the national press?

Not only this, but Upton has successfully and clearly managed to demonstrate, in the space of those two sentences alone ((never mind all the other comments Upton's made). :

1 Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

2 Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

3 Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.

4 Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.

  1. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.

  2. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.

  3. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

I must applaud the work of Dr Upton in showing the absoluetely incredible power of the Streisand Effect in its full glory and being able to condense those complex sentiments into such a concise format. It really is quite the achievement. Dr Upton's control and command of the English language is quite the spectacle to behold.

Bravo to all and every woman, who keeps finding her own voice and daring to talk to others and centring women's feelings rather than just pandering to those of males and suppressing our own concerns.

How very dare we.

Keep talking: Dr Upton doesn't like women organising and talking amongst themselves.

Edited

Coming very late to these threads - great job everyone on all the updates.

In any other situation where there was a conflict of interest between 2 parties at work, surely it wouldn't be acceptable to deliberately prevent the other party from raising their concerns?

Is this being proposed as a defence, or an early admission of wrong doing?

Even if Dr Upton doesn't feel able to acknowledge his sex, his solicitors must be aware of the 1992 Health and Safety regs, WORIADS, the law as it relates to sex? SP's case for asking him to leave is simply that he is a man in the women's changing room. No more detail is required.

Harassedevictee · 12/02/2025 17:29

nauticant · 12/02/2025 16:15

JR: And re timing, we are looking at July - J July?!

If that's about resumption after adjournment, that doesn't surprise me at all. What we can do though is write to the ET and point out that they will therefore have months to sort out their "technical issues" to re-enable public remote access for resumption.

Already done this first thing. I respectfully suggested a stream on YouTube or similar platform to prevent further disruptions a5 a crucial point in cross examination.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:29

Cerah · 12/02/2025 17:15

I've been following this case and this whole thing is bonkers. A woman tells a man he shouldn't be using the women's changing rooms and she is the one who is suspended.

Idgaf if she asked him about his chromosomes. She was absolutely right to tell him he shouldn't be in there. While I know how we have got into this situation, I still can't believe we are here. This poor woman has to publicly detail previous trauma and her menstrual cycle to defend saying what she had every right to say, while this man sat there smugly saying he's a biological female and played the victim.

I've always thought this stuff was rubbish since uni. Unfortunately not a lot of my friends agree and have shut me down whenever I've mentioned it. I might have to continue lurking on Mumsnet a to feel sane.

Edited

Same - either they couldn't see the problem or that it wasn't their problem or thought I wasn't being kind.

I was chatting to an old mate last week about the case and couldn't believe it when she said we would have to agree to disagree. And then started talking about how vulnerable trans women were - even though I'd been telling her about DU's first day of (frankly shocking) statements under oath. Bounced right off her and she said it was just trans panic being stirred up by "the right".

I started to panic about what the Judge would consider the view of a "typical person".... still a concern now TBH

Tallisker · 12/02/2025 17:29

Why has his two-hour drive home at Christmas now morphed into a 50 minute one?

TimeForATerf · 12/02/2025 17:30

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 16:33

Yes she will be on full pay.

Presumably with no enhancements and given she worked two night shifts a week would have seen a reduction in her pay since suspension?

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:30

@Merrymouse

Even if Dr Upton doesn't feel able to acknowledge his sex, his solicitors must be aware of the 1992 Health and Safety regs, WORIADS, the law as it relates to sex? SP's case for asking him to leave is simply that he is a man in the women's changing room. No more detail is required.

Unfortunately I don't think SP clearly asked him to leave - but you could check TT

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:32

nauticant · 12/02/2025 17:23

May I ask a favour? I'd imagine a lot of us will discussing this case with friends. There's too much to discuss, but there are certainly highlights. What, in the view of the hivemind here, were the stand-outs from Upton's testimony? The ones I've jotted down, in no particular order, are:

  • During cross-examination Upton refused to engage with a large number of questions because they contained perfectly normal terms he said he wouldn't recognise, like "woman".
  • From an earlier thread: "The top of the peak for me today has been Upton's slimy admittance that he believes he has the right to perform an intimate examination on a seriously unwell female patient who has already requested same sex care unless that patient refuses him personally."
  • Biological sex isn't a thing, it's a nebulous dog whistle.
  • He's female, and a biological female.
  • The attempt to throw uncertainty that babies are made by the combination of components from a male person and a female person. (But I don't recall his specific way of expressing his very surprising view.)
  • That he might give medical treatment to people according to their gender identity rather than their sex.
  • He made complaints about the nurse hurting his feelings and also about potentially career-ending fitness to practice issues, but only made notes for the former.
  • The triviality of the "hate incidents".
  • The triviality of the "fitness to practice incidents".

In mentioning it to my DS (adult but only just) - who is not really GC, way too inclined to see sex as an inconvenient temporary thing that science may sort out in due course - I emphasised "he says he's biologically female" and then my impression that he had attempted to intimidate and dominate NC, and that therefore, my view was it was far more likely he had done the same to SP than that it had been the other way round. FWIW.

hollyblueivy · 12/02/2025 17:32

Is it just the workplace that DU would use the women's changing rooms, or would women's changing rooms be used say at the local gym, swimming pool, leisure centre etc? Do these places have policies about men in changing rooms. Not something I have really given much thought to before now.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:32

Tallisker · 12/02/2025 17:29

Why has his two-hour drive home at Christmas now morphed into a 50 minute one?

NC challenged him on that yesterday and I missed it - afternoon session.
She accused him of "added that in" late to cover something up - then I missed a lot of this morning so don't know what was said

myplace · 12/02/2025 17:33

nauticant · 12/02/2025 17:23

May I ask a favour? I'd imagine a lot of us will discussing this case with friends. There's too much to discuss, but there are certainly highlights. What, in the view of the hivemind here, were the stand-outs from Upton's testimony? The ones I've jotted down, in no particular order, are:

  • During cross-examination Upton refused to engage with a large number of questions because they contained perfectly normal terms he said he wouldn't recognise, like "woman".
  • From an earlier thread: "The top of the peak for me today has been Upton's slimy admittance that he believes he has the right to perform an intimate examination on a seriously unwell female patient who has already requested same sex care unless that patient refuses him personally."
  • Biological sex isn't a thing, it's a nebulous dog whistle.
  • He's female, and a biological female.
  • The attempt to throw uncertainty that babies are made by the combination of components from a male person and a female person. (But I don't recall his specific way of expressing his very surprising view.)
  • That he might give medical treatment to people according to their gender identity rather than their sex.
  • He made complaints about the nurse hurting his feelings and also about potentially career-ending fitness to practice issues, but only made notes for the former.
  • The triviality of the "hate incidents".
  • The triviality of the "fitness to practice incidents".

Awesome. I suggest adding the witnesses backing up Sandie’s perception of events, not DU’s, and his accounts being as variable and nebulous as sex apparently is.

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:34

hollyblueivy · 12/02/2025 17:32

Is it just the workplace that DU would use the women's changing rooms, or would women's changing rooms be used say at the local gym, swimming pool, leisure centre etc? Do these places have policies about men in changing rooms. Not something I have really given much thought to before now.

Come on, he's a woman, of course he would use the women's changing rooms whereever he went. Can you imagine him doing anything else?

Cerah · 12/02/2025 17:35

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:29

Same - either they couldn't see the problem or that it wasn't their problem or thought I wasn't being kind.

I was chatting to an old mate last week about the case and couldn't believe it when she said we would have to agree to disagree. And then started talking about how vulnerable trans women were - even though I'd been telling her about DU's first day of (frankly shocking) statements under oath. Bounced right off her and she said it was just trans panic being stirred up by "the right".

I started to panic about what the Judge would consider the view of a "typical person".... still a concern now TBH

Sorry about your friend. Tbh the worst responses I've had have all been from women. The men I know who agree at least accept there are some aspects of women's safety and dignity they may not fully understand. I remember speaking to a female friend about males and rape crisis centres and she said the female rape victims would just have to get over it.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:35

This afternoon's 2nd session from TT:

https://archive.ph/fqdBN

Thanks so much to the TT team - we would be completely in the dark without you all - what a mammoth task - so grateful!

And to @nauticant also for keeping up with the thread marathons

SameyMcNameChange · 12/02/2025 17:35

StellaAndCrow · 12/02/2025 16:44

Yes, and we know that he was also the judge in Gillian Phillips (GC author) employment tribunal. He was swayed by gender ideology to rule against her.

I am not sure that is a fair reading of what happened. I can't find his original judgement, but this was a case about whether she was a 'worker' an 'employee' or neither. He found for her in whether she had a right to bring the claim late (which is where it was relevant that she was severely affected by the death of her husband, quite naturally) but he found against her by ruling that she was neither an employee nor a worker (and hence she couldn't bring the case about being unfairly treated in respect of her opinions, because she wasn't entitled to avail herself of those protections). In the 'worker/employee' point the facts are much more about what she did or didn't have autonomy over.

It was appealed to the EAT (judgement below) and the Appeal judge did not overturn his judgement. The judge who allowed the appeal to be brought said his fact finding was meticulous. So I don't see anything that should lead anyone to be worried about this one. Meticulous fact finding is what we want.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/661cf91f08c3be25cfbd3d93/Mrs_Gillian_Philip_v_Working_Partners_Ltd_and_Harpercollins_Publishers_LLC__2024__EAT_43.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/661cf91f08c3be25cfbd3d93/Mrs_Gillian_Philip_v_Working_Partners_Ltd_and_Harpercollins_Publishers_LLC__2024__EAT_43.pdf

myplace · 12/02/2025 17:36

And @nauticant his repetitions of ‘as a woman’ and everyone perceiving him as a woman and so on. Mention of his big girl pants is TMI IMO.

fanOfBen · 12/02/2025 17:36

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 17:30

@Merrymouse

Even if Dr Upton doesn't feel able to acknowledge his sex, his solicitors must be aware of the 1992 Health and Safety regs, WORIADS, the law as it relates to sex? SP's case for asking him to leave is simply that he is a man in the women's changing room. No more detail is required.

Unfortunately I don't think SP clearly asked him to leave - but you could check TT

She clearly said "you shouldn't be here" which should suffice! He later twisted it on the basis that she hadn't said "please leave now", but that's purest sophistry.

hollyblueivy · 12/02/2025 17:37

@fanOfBen That's is concerning for women, or children that may be in these spaces. I wonder what the actual companies that run these places have as their policy. Even if there is a policy that stops men from using the space in whatever terminology that best enables understanding (Cis / literal / trans etc) would DU abide by those rules. Also more widely not just DU but any other man with the same thoughts and feelings as DU.

myplace · 12/02/2025 17:38

May I ask about your name, @nauticant ?
I had assumed a nautical connection but seeing it being chanted earlier I’m now reading it as rather more rude!

SpinUp2 · 12/02/2025 17:39

Why is KS possibly going to be added as 3rd respondent?

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