NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

I don't teach ethics as a subject, but it's a consideration (or it should be!) in every patient interaction. I teach resuscitation and critical care, so I'm often dealing with patients who are unconscious or incapacitated to the degree that they lack capacity to consent. In these cases, we act in what we believe to be the best interests of the patient. If a patient has previously made a request regarding clinician gender/sex, we would accommodate that where possible. However, in a time critical life-threatening situation, the requirement to act quickly will often supersede, and the person with the appropriate clinical skills will use them, whatever their sex/gender.

In my experience of 15+ years of managing life-threatening emergencies, a person on death's door doesn't give a damn about the sex/gender of the person saving their life. I know I wouldn't.

(As an aside, the transgender patients I have treated have always been honest about their biological sex because they know it matters from a medical perspective. I am respectful and I use the pronouns they prefer, but I am straightforward when discussing the matter of sex. I've never encountered a trans patient who expects me to believe they are literally the opposite sex.)

sorry for quick derail: did DU ever clarify if they just went ahead and used the CR - sounded to me like he did? what did he do in these 2 weeks before speaking to KS

J: First time you discussed with anyone about use of CRs was with KS, about 2 weeks in?
DU: Yes I think so - discussed re trans in psych induction, but I think not CRs or toilets.

you looked at that day?

ED - yes

JR - read the 4th bullet point, do you remember reading it that day

ED - I read the whole policy that day

JR - spoke to IB around 9 am, then you looked at this policy after you spoke to IB, when was that

ED - It was so long ago, I don't remember

The judge and legal teams AND the NHS management all know that an order means an order. I don't think we need to read too much into the dialogue between the legal teams in court. It's just how they talk to each other. NC pushes the line in her own way too. When she asks J to emphasise things to JR, it's a kind of pantomime because as J rightly says, certain things are for JR & the respondents to decide but, having asked the question, NC has made another point to the court and the listening public.

I think, unless DU is less intelligent than it seems, J's questioning yesterday will have been terrifying. The quickfire questions may have been delivered casually but they were clearly a 'mopping up' session from a J who has observed everything and was leaving nothing unanswered.

DU let slip some of the legal advice given to respondents. It seems clear this was never expected to come to court. I wouldn't be surprised if attempts to settle were already made, right up to the line. If it does come back after the adjournment, and disclosures are still missing, there will be serious consequences for FifeNHS.

but I was on non-clinical time that morning so it would have been that morning.

JR - what else were you doing

ED - I was looking to see if there was anything directly relating to transgender, to see if there was anything written locally that would help me come to a decision

I popped over to the BMA Scotland website and they appear to have a 24/7 counselling service. It is possible that Dr U phoned that (if so, surely easy enough to check on your phone - why wouldn't you?) BUT I suspect he already knows some trans - friendly people there. Or he made it up.

There was a row about the BMA wanting to review the Cass review/discredit it last year, wasn't there?

Though over the 30 years it's quite possible/likely that ED hasn't been there that long herself, or that she previously worked alongside Sandie as staff nurse before being promoted up.

"I've never encountered a trans patient who expects me to believe they are literally the opposite sex" - this is interesting, given that BU does believe this. And if Naomi Cunningham did drop down in front of BU, would BU's misgendering her on the potential basis of purely physical appearance, given NC has short hair and doesn't present as particularly gender conforming put NC's life in danger should she treat her as a biological man?

JR - you've mentioned NMC code of conduct, no, its the NHS Scotland Staff Code of Conduct, did you look at that

ED - I may have but it's so long ago

JR - the NHS Code of Values, may you have looked at that

ED - I may have. The search I put in was 'equality and diversity'

For me it's more I don't trust someone to treat me who wants to coercively control me to the point of thinking I'm a transphobic bigot if i use standard English according to my perceptions.

I wonder whether they'd put the same effort into treating someone who's a sex realist as a trans ally? Or even that they perceive to be a sex realist - maybe someone who just accidentally uses normal English as JR and the Judge have done, it's not easy even when you're trying to, if you're in pain it's probably nigh on impossible to rewire your brain to comply with demands like this.

Doctors are in a position of power over life and death. Someone who's shown themselves to want to punish unbelievers is not someone I'd want treating me. I'd rather even have a nurse like SP rather than a doctor with this level of narcissism and desire to punish women.

Edited to add: I have had plenty of male doctors treat me, but they've generally demonstrated that they are concerned about my wellbeing and safety. Frankly having watched Upton, I do not believe he has the capacity to care about any woman who doesn't comply with what he wants.

Hello Peeps

This is what I am sending to Wes Streeting this morning. Maybe consider sending something similar?

[email protected]

--------

Dear Minister for Health & Social Care

I have been watching the Employment Tribunal called by Sandie Peggie in Scotland.
(Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024

Sandie Peggie has brought this action against NHS Fife and Dr B Upton as joint respondents. She alleges harassment or sexual harassment, victimisation and whistleblowing.

Having heard about the case, and being interested in women's rights, I took the opportunity to observe the hearing, particularly the first 2 days of evidence by Dr Upton. I had tuned in expecting to hear that both employees were vulnerable and that the NHS had failed to balance their competing needs. However under oath the doctor expressed some shocking - and at times - chilling views which were entirely lacking in empathy and appeared to disregard the human rights of those who didn't share their beliefs.

The case hinges on whether simple words like man or woman can be labelled hate speech - in my opinion having listened to both make their cases, is unacceptable for one party to control the language of another and limit their ability to express their needs.

There are therefore two concerns I would like to raise:

1. The serious problems with gender self ID in relation to obtaining informed consent to treatment. The doctor made it clear that the onus was on the patient to object to a specific practitioner - even if they (or their family) had already expressed a preference for a female healthcare professional. The doctor also stated that anyone refusing treatment would be considered transphobic. This leaves a patient with no personal freedom or dignity and leaves everyone vulnerable. This is (or should be) against all safeguarding principles. It is far too reminiscent of the old "she didn't say no" defence. The current situation is completely unacceptable. I would like to know how the DfH will ensure that women have the right to closing this loophole immediately - potentially putting temporary measures in place while evidence is gathered and analysed.

2. The doctor is named as joint respondent in the Employment Tribunal. This means they are jointly and severally liable for any financial awards if the claims are found against them. The evidence heard so far, unforced and under oath from the doctor, is shocking. I imagine NHS Fife were not aware of the doctor's extremist personal views before they agreed to joint counsel. Therefore should any claims be found against the respondents, a financial award may be made. I would like your assurance, that if Dr Upton is eventually found liable for a financial costs, that no public money will be used to cover the doctor's share.

I look forward to hearing from you

OMG, I've just read the comments that Reddit mods deleted from the r/doctorsuk thread "Patient consent question: is Dr Upton correct not to have to disclose gender to a patient if they've requested a particular gender of clinician"

Thank you to the person upthread who shared the link https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/doctorsUK/comments/1inpif2

The comments are a stark illustration of however kindly you ask a question, it's not sufficiently fawning.

e.g.

110 points21 hours ago
Agree with this, fully appreciate Dr. Upton does not want to disclose their personal life details to every patient, but surely if there is an intimate examination or discussion then that request should be accommodated?
There will be a different life experience particularly with periods, sexual assault, et cetera…

[−]201 points20 hours ago
Their gender is female.
They process emotions and feel as much a woman as you do about your gender - luckily, presumably, your genitals just happened to match at birth...

[−]166 points20 hours ago
I’m not trying to be offensive, but growing up as a woman means you’ll have a different lived experience. I’m not saying that to offend, but if you are born male, you may have no understanding of what I experienced as a girl growing up into an adult female. That difference could matter to a patient, consider young teenagers or women going through menopause for example. I’ve never asked for a female doctor, but that might be somebody else’s choice.
If the request was for a female for religious reasons, would you also have an issue with this?

[-58 points20 hours ago
In this scenario, I think you’re eluding to the fact a biological woman may have had a negative experience with a male during their upbringing?
In that case, the issue this patient has is with seeing a male. Why would that cause an issue if a transgender woman doctor saw them?

It is only earned income that is taxable. This is clearly not earned so not taxable.

and so those are the policies I get back.

JR - what else did you do

ED - I spoke to the deputy head consultant, Maggie Currer (sp) she had been advised that Beth was within rights to use female CR

JR - face to face

ED - yes we share an office corridor and I spoke with her

directly.

JR - you've already explained what was said.

ED - yes

JR - looked at docs, spoke to MC, when did you next speak to the C?

ED - I had some holiday, and I think it was the beginning of October when I next saw Sandies

JR - when did that happen

I’m very behind on posts so this may have already been said but I thought DU said it was his “sincere belief” that he was a woman that made him so. And NC then queried how one was to establish whether someone’s belief was “sincere”..

ED - it was in the morning, Sandie was in resus, I was coming on shift,

JR - face to face? at the beginning of October? what time?

ED - It was about 7:40, we arrive on shift at 7:30 then have safety brief so about 7:40

JR - it was in resus

ED - yes

Exactly, as has been shown in glorious technicolour by Dr Upton. He shows no kindness or respect for anyone who does not capitulate to him.

I'm guessing if you didn't say male, but specified transwomen, in that case, that would be worse.

There's no way you can avoid it according to the ideology

Submit or else

JR - anyone else around

ED - yes, but it was just a convo between us

JR - what did you say

ED - I told her that Beth had the right to use the female CR

JR - what did she say

ED - she was upset and angry, I talked about alternative provision for changing, it's custom and practice

that we use that room as changing facility, the designated CR with showers is in the basement, we have staff members that use the store cupboard to change, or only change in the cubicles, if they are less comfortable with changing in front of others

JR - you said that SP

At this point, I'd rather have Mary from roon the corner who was the School Nurse many moons ago than Dr Upton.

Comments have been suspended on Sandie's crowdfunder. Do you think the usual suspects are trying to have it shut down?

Please complain to your MP if you haven’t already

was angry about what you told. her, how did you know

ED - I don't know if it was anger or frustration

JR - how did you assess her mood

ED - well SP always appears quite stern, so there's that, but she seemed very tense and when I mentioned the cubicles, she said she wouldn't