NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

If this was my GP surgery I would use FoI to request data on what percentage of women on their list who are invited for smears actually turn up and have the smear. I'd compare that to national figures and if there's a discrepancy I'd take it to the papers.
(Assuming this person has been in role long enough for word to have got round, and for most women to have had at least one smear appointment with him so they know what to expect).

ED - work with patients

JR - what are your management resp

ED - staffing, complaints, any Datix, I also think about the future of the department, I am assisted by 2 senior charge nurses

JR - who are the charge nurses:

ED - Louise Curran, Loren Hart (sp?)

@prh47bridge What are the chances of DU / BU having a clean sweep of removing all photographs, new items etc. from search engines after this is over, please?

In the same way that way people can ask for "dead names" etc. to be removed from the internet under the Right to Be Forgotten?

I have. Q about BU getting advice from the BMA - no sign of email; he thought they 'might' have phoned but couldn't recall the content.
Maybe the phone call was just 'fancy a pint?' And they discussed it in the pub, where the BMA person said "your case is weak, but if you can recall another incident, maybe invvong a patient...". No records, conveniently.

I agree. I’d contribute to a crowdfunder to get the GMC to record sex and trans status.

Patients need to know this, in similar way to needing to know what medical qualifications they have. Doctors should accept that.

Applies to other HCPs too - physios, nurses, perhaps all?

@inks

Just wanted to circle back and give you some more options to raise this, is there a health watch in your area, they may be worth reaching out to as well.

JR - who is SP's line manager

ED - both of them JR - how long have you known SP

ED - since she joined in 1994

JR - what is your working relationship with SP

ED - Sandie works mainly at night, I would see her at handover etc, my work is mainly day shift,

JR - you mentioned

handovers, how many per day and what time

ED - 2 per day 7:30 am and 7:30 pm,

JR - how long is handover

ED - 20 minutes JR - 2 per day

ED - yes but I wouldn't see Sandie at every handover, only if she was shift coordinator

I will contact Sex Matters, I'm sure they will be very helpful with this actually - such a huge amount of knowledge.

JR - now going to EDs evidence of August convo with SP. Do you want to read and refresh your memory of I/X evidence. When did that convo happen.

ED - I can't give you an exact date because it was so long ago, but I think it was towards the end of August, I'm basing that on

Some interesting distancing herself from Sandie straight off the bat.

Will she have been following the tribunal up to now? Or does she have to have kept away from it all up til today?

when Dr U started and began working on the floor.

JR - was anyone else present at that meeting

ED - no, it was just us.

J - could you speak up and speak to us?

ED <apologises>

JR - what was said in that meeting

ED - Sandie said that Beth was using the female CR I hadn't

Not necessarily; she has to be factual and she's simply stating facts that would come out sooner or later.

This is what I think, I think he may have used getting advice as BMA to make things sound like they were advanced further than they actually were - hence all my questions re. holiday dates and office closures.

There's a lot more weight going to a superior saying "advised by BMA" vs "Met a friend for a pint (who happens to work at the BMA" isn't there?

Some interesting distancing herself from Sandie straight off the bat.

No reason to assume it's not accurate, though.

thought about the CR, I had seen Beth a fair amount in a prev role in psychiatry but I hadn't thought about it. SP told me that she was uncomfortable. I didn't know what the Trust's policy was and I would follow up. ..

JR - before we get there what did you say to SP

She's supposed to have kept away, but I can imagine it may not have been possible to stay completely in the dark!

Yes, and thank you for reviving the correct use of the term "Begging the Question"!

There are over 70 staff on some big department rotas. It's easy to go a long time without working closely with some people just by dint of shift patterns and leave .

ED - I said I would look into it, I don't want anyone feeling uncomfortable, I felt empathetic to her

JR - you said that you did something that day, you contacted the ED manager, who was that

ED - Isla Bumber (sp), IB,

JR - when did you contact her

ED - after she was in the

True, but it was additional info to the question she was asked.

So nice to hear the witness say Sandie’s name. Well, to see that she’s said it.

office, not everyone starts at 7:30.

JR - what time did you talk with SP

ED - 7:40 or so, then got in touch with IB as soon as I could

JR - what did you say to IB

ED - I explained that there was a TW dr in ED, what was the trust policy on tw in women's CR.

JR - what did IB tell you

ED - that Beth was a TW and had the right to use the women's CR, then I went and looked at the Blink system

JR - what policy did you look at

ED - not certain

JR - can I take you to the Equality Diversity and Human Rights Policy, is that the policy that