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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
campingwidow · 13/02/2025 10:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 09:35

Question to anyone who is a doctor or familiar, is consent and ethics covered in medical training?

Yes it is certainly in my local university. I lecture on it in medical school.

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 10:04

KnottyAuty · 13/02/2025 10:00

I was thinking that now the GMC have had a dose of letters/complaints.
That next up would be Wes Streeting as Minister for Health?

  1. The problems with self ID over riding women's consent to treatment
  2. The objection to any public money being allocated to cover DU's financial liabilities associated with the ET findings (should anything be found against them)
Show quote history

I actually have a meeting with him set up about some things within his constituency (also NHS related); perhaps I will create some space in the agenda to raise this, and follow up with a written request.

Second question, if the GMC do not act on removing DU from the register as women do we have a legal case against them? The way I see this is they are not allowing women to have informed consent opportunities with their current stance, and these may lead to serious consequences... with lifelong impacts of trauma for which services are already non existent with the NHS (or very limited, or very unsafe, depending on where you are).

ickky · 13/02/2025 10:04

Morning all

From TT

We are waiting to be admitted to the hearing.

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 10:04

ExitPursuedByABare · 13/02/2025 09:33

I was recently in the A&E department of a large London hospital. I’d asked for a catheter and eventually on my third time of asking the male nurse wandered off to find someone to do it. Enter another male nurse. I requested a female and almost qualified my request with ‘an actual female’ but bit my tongue.

What mildly pissed me off was the first male nurse apologising to the second male nurse because I wouldn’t let him perform the procedure.

I work in radiology. A woman attended for a bladder investigation, involving flooding the bladder with contrast medium. Usually they arrive already catheterised via the urology dept, but for some reason on this occasion this hadn't happened. Dr (male) asked for a nurse to catheterise the patient. I was happy to oblige, had a female radiographer who carefully locked the door, and all proceeded well. Afterwards one the junior radiographers, male, commented "I can't believe Dr X can't do a catheterisation". I replied "Of course he could but he rightly recognised that most women would prefer same sex care and want a female to do it". He looked genuinely confused and said "Oh, I hadn't thought about that". I took the opportunity to drive home the same sex care, saying "I think most people would prefer SAME SEX care for intimate procedures, probably men do too".
He was newly qualified. I blame the university. This concept clearly isn't mentioned during their training.

ickky · 13/02/2025 10:04

I guess they missed the aim of starting at 10am sharp.....

Original poster
nauticant · 13/02/2025 10:06

11am identifies as 10am, etc ...

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 13/02/2025 10:06

KnottyAuty · 13/02/2025 09:55

Being named on an ET as respondent means being jointly and severally liaible.
The ET can award damages.
Some categories have limits
Harrassment and Whistleblowing don't - the financial awards are calculated on any losses suffered. Don't know about legal costs.
Maybe this is one of the motivations for DU not having sole legal counsel?

Back at about thread #4 (?) it sounded like DU would probably be covered by the NHS for costs but given what has been stated under oath and the possible professional conduct complaints being instigated by the public, I can imagine that it might cause a bit of a row if it is seen that tax payers money is paid out to DU to protect personal views/actions (that are found unacceptable by the ET)... So there are potentially financial consequences

Show quote history

Are they all jointly and severally liable for each other's actions, or is there a situation where employees could be found to have harassed SP, but NHS Fife can just claim bad apples?

fanOfBen · 13/02/2025 10:06

lnks · 13/02/2025 09:58

At my surgery you book smear tests through the app. It has the name of the HCP when you book. Unfortunately, there is only one HCP who does all of the smears, a man called 'Kelly' who wears women's clothes, and a silk scarf around his neck presumably to hide his Adams apple. The first time I encountered him was luckily only for an asthma review.

There is no other HCP who does the smears. I have spoken to the GP and they absolutely refuse to let me book with anyone else. They have completly removed my ability to chose. It means I, as a victim of domestic sexual abuse at the hands of my ex, can no longer have a smear. This HCP and the surgery are literally endangering my health, but that clearly isn't as important as his feelings

Show quote history

I am sorry you've been put in this position. In my city, at least years ago, it was possible to get a smear at the sexual health clinic - terminology varies, but a place anyone can turn up and register in addition to their GP registration and which does contraception, sexual health and, it turns out, smears. Worth looking into. Also, in Scotland, when you have a smear what happens is you are tested for high-risk HPV variants. If negative, nobody ever actually looks at the smear. (I was surprised, but it's because the correlation between cervical cancer and those variants is so strong.) You can get a self-administered test for the high-risk HPV variants from chemists; might be worth doing to give yourself peace of mind if in fact you don't have any and wouldn't be getting your smear looked at anyway.

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 10:07

@lnks · please get in contact with my body back - and also all doctors can perform smears (some just may not want to). Patient choice and all that. My GP has done mine for me previously.

ickky · 13/02/2025 10:07

The first witness this morning is expected to be Esther Davison, Senior Charge Nurse, SPs supervisor.

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 10:07

Also well done sticking up for yourself @ExitPursuedByABare

It really should be a given that females do female catheterisation (and vice versa).
It used to be that way.

borntobequiet · 13/02/2025 10:08

lnks · 13/02/2025 09:58

At my surgery you book smear tests through the app. It has the name of the HCP when you book. Unfortunately, there is only one HCP who does all of the smears, a man called 'Kelly' who wears women's clothes, and a silk scarf around his neck presumably to hide his Adams apple. The first time I encountered him was luckily only for an asthma review.

There is no other HCP who does the smears. I have spoken to the GP and they absolutely refuse to let me book with anyone else. They have completly removed my ability to chose. It means I, as a victim of domestic sexual abuse at the hands of my ex, can no longer have a smear. This HCP and the surgery are literally endangering my health, but that clearly isn't as important as his feelings

Show quote history

That’s shocking.

FinallyASunnyDay · 13/02/2025 10:09

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 09:55

Yes, it's fundamental to medical training. The bioethical principles of medicine are:

Beneficence (do good)
Non-maleficence (do no harm)
Justice
Respect for autonomy (NB: we're talking about the patient's autonomy here!)

I'm not a doctor, but a medical educator. I teach doctors, medical students, nurses and other HCPs.

Show quote history

Do you ever use thorny cases including gender in your teaching? Would you ever consider it? Whilst I got ethics training (of course) it was (just) pre-gender days. What is it like now?

Boiledbeetle · 13/02/2025 10:09

ickky · 13/02/2025 10:04

Morning all

From TT

We are waiting to be admitted to the hearing.

You've arrived!

Yay!

Hope the cut and paste fingers are all ready to go x

Happy Anniversary GIF by Sesame Street
RethinkingLife · 13/02/2025 10:09

nauticant · 13/02/2025 10:02

Remember that if you write to Wes Streeting, it would be sensible to point out that Scotland are making a mess of their health system allowing this nonsense but England can do things more rationally and reality-based.

From the Sheffield case and the upcoming Doncaster, there are cases in the public eye of where the NHS is already doing this.

I'd be surprised if it's not, effectively, the policy in a fair number of the 42 ICBs.

lnks · 13/02/2025 10:10

@fanOfBen @NebulousHog thank you both. I will get in touch with them. I'm not sure there are any sexual health clinics around here, I live in the middle of nowhere. I wasn't aware of the tests that can be administered at home. I will definitely look into this

ThatPithySheep · 13/02/2025 10:10

Waiting for TT to update us all - thank you for your efforts!

Working Jim Carrey GIF
Datun · 13/02/2025 10:12

lnks

that's bloody awful, how can that even be legal.

I've just googled it, and you can get private tests from £140 upwards. I know not everyone is in a position to pay that though.

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2025 10:12

I was thinking as well, in terms of Dr Upton claiming that anyone can refuse treatment - if you were in a hospital in Fife and Dr Upton himself walked in to treat you, I think the reaction at that point from anyone who has been following this case would be 'oh God, definitely not you' (given his frightening seeming lack of basic medical knowledge and disregard of patient's rights/feelings/dignity declared by him).

But you'd do this perfectly aware that you'd be facing some sort of legal/police challenge. Because his narcissism couldn't have that.

RethinkingLife · 13/02/2025 10:14

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 10:04

I actually have a meeting with him set up about some things within his constituency (also NHS related); perhaps I will create some space in the agenda to raise this, and follow up with a written request.

Second question, if the GMC do not act on removing DU from the register as women do we have a legal case against them? The way I see this is they are not allowing women to have informed consent opportunities with their current stance, and these may lead to serious consequences... with lifelong impacts of trauma for which services are already non existent with the NHS (or very limited, or very unsafe, depending on where you are).

Show quote history

What an interesting Q2. I wonder if Sex Matters might have a view if you emailed them?

I'd think that would be a very popular crowdfunder.

thenosiesttermagant · 13/02/2025 10:15

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2025 10:12

I was thinking as well, in terms of Dr Upton claiming that anyone can refuse treatment - if you were in a hospital in Fife and Dr Upton himself walked in to treat you, I think the reaction at that point from anyone who has been following this case would be 'oh God, definitely not you' (given his frightening seeming lack of basic medical knowledge and disregard of patient's rights/feelings/dignity declared by him).

But you'd do this perfectly aware that you'd be facing some sort of legal/police challenge. Because his narcissism couldn't have that.

Exactly. Anyone in full possession of knowledge of this man's behaviour would not want to be treated by him.

But ultimately it's down to the NHS to protect patients from abusers. Which obviously, they're insanely crap at doing. There needs to be some kind of accountability. Job losses for a start.

ickky · 13/02/2025 10:15

The Panel has arrived.

J - any new matters

J - swearing the witness,

JR - full name ED - Esther Davidson

P2 - please speak up

JR - work address ED - ED at Victoria Hospital.

JR - how long have you worked there

ED - started training in 1986 then have worked there since

Boiledbeetle · 13/02/2025 10:16

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2025 10:12

I was thinking as well, in terms of Dr Upton claiming that anyone can refuse treatment - if you were in a hospital in Fife and Dr Upton himself walked in to treat you, I think the reaction at that point from anyone who has been following this case would be 'oh God, definitely not you' (given his frightening seeming lack of basic medical knowledge and disregard of patient's rights/feelings/dignity declared by him).

But you'd do this perfectly aware that you'd be facing some sort of legal/police challenge. Because his narcissism couldn't have that.

At least he wouldn't be absolutely certain it was due to his trans status anymore! Most people will be refusing on the totally doesn't understand basic biology basis. I wonder if he'd be more annoyed or less annoyed that it wasn't because a patient was 'transphobic' but because they thought he was an unsafe doctor medical care wise?

ickky · 13/02/2025 10:16

then <some discussiona about how many years - 30+ years>

JR - what is your title now and at the time of complaint

ED - Internal Senior Clinical Nurse Manager

JR - what does that mean,

ED - some management responsibilities, and still do clinical work

JR - what is clinical

Pobblenotoes · 13/02/2025 10:17

lnks · 13/02/2025 09:58

At my surgery you book smear tests through the app. It has the name of the HCP when you book. Unfortunately, there is only one HCP who does all of the smears, a man called 'Kelly' who wears women's clothes, and a silk scarf around his neck presumably to hide his Adams apple. The first time I encountered him was luckily only for an asthma review.

There is no other HCP who does the smears. I have spoken to the GP and they absolutely refuse to let me book with anyone else. They have completly removed my ability to chose. It means I, as a victim of domestic sexual abuse at the hands of my ex, can no longer have a smear. This HCP and the surgery are literally endangering my health, but that clearly isn't as important as his feelings

Show quote history

Can you go to a local GU clinic? We have specialist sexual health clinics in my local city where you can go instead of local GP surgery. Also maybe raise a complaint

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