NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

The respondents have called her, so their problem if she turns out to be a poor witness.

I believe there will be no consequences. Ultimately, this case is about NHS Fife's handling of the complaints and the process to which they subjected SP although mostly at the instigation of DU / BU.

I'm also fairly convinced that NHS boards in Scotland and elsewhere, in addition to various arms-length bodies, would be desperate to recruit DU / BU to their boards in a demonstration of their commitment to diversity (obvious plus age). I expect DU / BU to be offered at least associated NED positions with a view to being mentored into the positions such as chair of relevant committees, working group, or even (over time) lived experience director of service delivery somewhere.

As a charity representative apparently, like Maya was a witness for SP

An earlier poster, somewhere back in the midsts of time, talked about how BU was doing quite a lot of damage to the various different interest groups that make up the trans community. Those who say "no-one is saying you actually change sex" for example.

So I am interested in how VV will respond to questions...because if she takes the absolute batshit crazy lines of BU, it'll be damaging to those in her "community" who have some grasp on reality. Giving evidence that says "of course biological sex is real, but (insert some nonsense here) wouldn't exactly be supportive of BU.

Oops sorry I mis-read that!
Likely we will ask - not yet named - sorry!

For anyone who hasn't read them -

https://www.transwidowsvoices.org/

I'd like NC to ask VV is she views Upton as a biological woman, and if VV considers herself to be a biological man

Dr's of all grades do obs all the time - have you never been an inpatient/to A&E? Drs do obs because they want to see the results themselves, as a way of chatting to the patient in a non-threatening manner and sometimes just because a much senior nurse who is in charge (of in this case resus) asks them to because she is busy.

Doing obs in especially and A&E setting is not a weird thing for a Dr to do, nor is it attached to pay scale.

I suspect you're thinking of the routine sets of obs done on medical wards each day which is a whole different thing.

The consensus of the doctors on here seems to be that it was entirely reasonable in this case, not least because in an ill patient the doctor might want to repeat some obs. themselves anyway.

Wow! So there we have Upton imagining himself in the role of put-upon, self-sacrificing hero who all the world is against but who would bravely rush to help this woman who doesn't like him. NC is just doing her job, like or dislike doesn't come into it.

I'd also like VV to have to spend some time in the company of the men she helped get into womens prisons

The whole argument of consent and disclosure to ensure female patients are listened to and treated by a female is a particular close-to-home experience for me.

It is unacceptable that a female is expected to have to speak up during often very frightening and worrying examinations and procedures.

In my case the lack of consent afforded to me when I was 14, very intimately examined by a 40+ year old male doctor (mother never advocated on my behalf), has irreperably affected me. I am now confrontational with a male doctors and really cannot be around them in certain medical scenarios. I dread to think what has been said about me....

The damage that a lack of consent creates is immeasurable and lasting. The fact we are still having to fight is nothing short of sickening. I am despondent that SP and so many other women suffer like this for what are basic rights.

The Bekind (holding in vomit) nonsense is another word for kowtowing towards males and accepting they are the ones that truly matter.

I’m not sure this is correct. For most doctors the reference to gender will be a reference to their sex. For a minority it will be a reference to their self declared “gender identity” but only for those with a binary trans identity. Afaik there are no non-binary or any other of the 100 genders on the GMC registers. (I might be wrong but I think this would have been newsworthy). So you have a situation where some doctors are allowed to lie about their sex which has the effect of making all the data untrustworthy. They might as well not publish it at all.

Being named on an ET as respondent means being jointly and severally liaible.
The ET can award damages.
Some categories have limits
Harrassment and Whistleblowing don't - the financial awards are calculated on any losses suffered. Don't know about legal costs.
Maybe this is one of the motivations for DU not having sole legal counsel?

Back at about thread #4 (?) it sounded like DU would probably be covered by the NHS for costs but given what has been stated under oath and the possible professional conduct complaints being instigated by the public, I can imagine that it might cause a bit of a row if it is seen that tax payers money is paid out to DU to protect personal views/actions (that are found unacceptable by the ET)... So there are potentially financial consequences

Yes, it's fundamental to medical training. The bioethical principles of medicine are:

Beneficence (do good)
Non-maleficence (do no harm)
Justice
Respect for autonomy (NB: we're talking about the patient's autonomy here!)

I'm not a doctor, but a medical educator. I teach doctors, medical students, nurses and other HCPs.

I've sometimes wondered during this hearing if the judge, when appearing to be excessively tolerant of Upton, has already decided in whose favour the judgment will go and he's being so tolerant of DrU to minimise the chance of any comeback from U's side.

Who do we raise the rage about taxpayers money being used to pay for this with? NHS Fife? Central / Devolved Government?

SP's fundraiser has reached £28k!

The HMRC better view this as a series of individual gifts from lots of people out of their income - and not "income" for SP which lands her with a big tax bill....

At my surgery you book smear tests through the app. It has the name of the HCP when you book. Unfortunately, there is only one HCP who does all of the smears, a man called 'Kelly' who wears women's clothes, and a silk scarf around his neck presumably to hide his Adams apple. The first time I encountered him was luckily only for an asthma review.

There is no other HCP who does the smears. I have spoken to the GP and they absolutely refuse to let me book with anyone else. They have completly removed my ability to chose. It means I, as a victim of domestic sexual abuse at the hands of my ex, can no longer have a smear. This HCP and the surgery are literally endangering my health, but that clearly isn't as important as his feelings

I think there are two ways there might be consequences for DU. One is if the judge not only finds in favour of SP, but finds that DU deliberately concocted a lie about her to get her disciplined for undermining patient safety. I am not expert in these matters, but I like to think that would be treated as a case of serious professional misconduct.

The other, perhaps, is that DU has come across so badly in all of this that I can't imagine anyone sane would want to employ him. He insists on being allowed to use the women's changing rooms, he gets upset when a nurse walks out of the changing room when he's in it, he ends up in floods of tears when the nurse challenges him directly, and he is so upset that he is subsequently signed off sick for eight weeks. Someone like that is simply going to pose endless problems for management and HR - unlike, say, a nurse who has worked for 30 years for the same employer with an unblemished record.

As I think I said on a much earlier thread, there’s a rich irony in Upton’s continual nitpicking about ‘clear’ language when his own use of language is intentionally designed to muddy, obfuscate and confuse.

I was thinking that now the GMC have had a dose of letters/complaints.
That next up would be Wes Streeting as Minister for Health?

1. The problems with self ID over riding women's consent to treatment
2. The objection to any public money being allocated to cover DU's financial liabilities associated with the ET findings (should anything be found against them)

Thinking of the suffragette motto, deeds not words.

NC kept asking DU re empathy.

There were refs to empathy in his words - said at length and speed and at first glance coherently.

Absolutely no empathy in his deeds. Not in what he has done in the past, eg to SP, or in what he will do in the future, eg attend a woman in distress even though she has asked for female-only care and only desist if she manages to stand up to him in that power-inbalanced situation. And then you have to ask yourself, what actually would he do then. Would he immediately find her proper care, or would she need to be punished?

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1889966588264435947?t=FdBGCZloY0WBOevmun97uQ&s=19

Link to this morning tweets

Doesn't seem to have got going yet.

Remember that if you write to Wes Streeting, it would be sensible to point out that Scotland are making a mess of their health system allowing this nonsense but England can do things more rationally and reality-based.