NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

Same

Still catching up but this is the obvious part of it that an awful lot of men - even otherwise intelligent one - don't seem to get. Especially the ones who want to gift other men special woman status. They seem to simply not notice (or perhaps deliberately choose to ignore) the glaringly obvious inconsistency that men like Upton are not doing all the most important and time consuming bits of a typical woman's life experience - obviously all the biological bits but then the cultural aspects too.

Frankly, a nurse telling him to do obs as a junior doctor is something that I'd imagine most female doctors have happen to them - we've had doctors on these threads confirming it's not unusual. Yet it seems to be one of many paltry pieces of 'evidence' of SP's hostility. It's only because of his male arrogance and ego (at the extreme end even for men) that he's even raising this as a concern.

This inability to notice the fucking obvious is actually almost a barometer of who's a decent bloke because the decent blokes notice that Joseph who's become Jane is quite remarkably if anything less likely to do the childcare or housework or necessary but boring tasks of life than when he was a normal bloke (the transwidows threads are enlightening on this).

Yet to decide which category the Judge will fall into....

Found relevant part from TT, NC is asking for Searle to be added, it's tbd.

NC: It is likely we will ask to add KS as individual respondent, and with specific act of her all-staff email as a detriment.
J: So we may have quite a lot to consider.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

KS has alway seemed to have a substantial role in this. I don't understand if KS will definitely need own counsel or if everyone is so aligned that JR is happy to be counsel for all 3 respondents (if KS is joined as one).

Uh?

The judge didn't seem very receptive to the idea, though, did he? And it is unlikley JR will agree.

The judge was quite right on this point. Whilst most of the time is being taken up by NC's cross examination, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that this is the respondent presenting their case. NC doesn't get to decide the order in which the respondents call their witnesses.

I’m hoping NC absolutely eviscerates VV, presumably this is where she can really go to town on the batshittery that is trans ideology.

Carrots planted for Faye 💪

There's a conflict of rights here. It's the fault of the Equality Act, carrying over mad concepts from the Gender Recognition Act, but that's what the situation is.

How to resolve this? Do we carry on with society organised as before, the Sandie Peggie approach, or do we re-organise society according to the surprising and new ideas put forward by Dr Upton?

Which way is most practical? Which will lead to a better running society? Which will cause all kinds of intractable problems?

The reason so much time has been taken up by NC cross examination is partly down to JR's interruptions, as well as the Judge's tardiness in all matters and his inability, or unwillingness, to hold the line.

I'm looking forward to that too. Sadly I'll be working, but am sure I can rely on this incredible team to keep me posted!

TBF, I wouldn’t want to see doctors on their pay grades doing obs (except in exceptional cases), when a nurse on a much lower pay grade can do them. Otherwise what are we paying doctors for?

I guess the ‘exceptional cases’ needs defining if people are going to be arsey about it.

As far as I can tell from what's been discussed KS took the decision to send an email to 17 (?) members of staff which pretty much took the position of judge, jury and executioner on SP before an investigation had been carried out into the alleged actions (of slightly ignoring DU and wanting a single sex changing room). So did not follow policy and I think NC's estimate this is a clear detriment to SP is correct. I'm not really sure how it's possible to get out of that act being discriminatory as it was prejudging the situation and showing extreme bias.

I actually have some sympathy for KS. She might be a full on TWAW zealot, wedded to the nonsense ideology over reality and as bad as Upton, but I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt because we've seen what an excellent coercive controller Upton is. Got to give it to him, he's good at the word salad undermining of reality, twisting everything to benefit him. Making the person he's talking to into the unreasonable one whose perceptions are wrong and who needs to do exactly as he wants to redeem themselves. Plus NHS Fife supported his crazy ideology over reality. So in the moment, I can see why going along with and appeasing Upton seemed the best move.

As we can see, his supposed reasons for complaining about Sandie are paper thing and inconsistent. On the one hand he has detailed notes, on the other, when it comes to patient safety, he can't pin down a date.

I hope KS gets her own lawyer and isn't still in thrall to Upton's control as he'll throw her under the bus in a nanosecond. If she still thinks someone displaying such male pattern abuse is a woman, I hope she has sensible people around her unpicking the fantasy he's convinced her of.

As one might expect given that it's Reddit, moderators have swept through and removed many gender critical comments and anything that implied or stated that Upton isn't a woman.

The genderist zealots are still whining about how "transphobic" the thread and the whole subreddit is though.

Like this post

I am trying my very best to convince myself that half of these people aren’t actually working in a medical field as they claim. The repeated suggestions of deception… have they ever even spoken to an endocrinologist who treats trans people? Being trans is not a deception.

Thank you, liquidpickles, for trying to point out the issues with what so many are saying here. I truly believe many of these people would not have trans people working in medicine at all, given the current comments here. Once again these posts are created, seemingly to distract from other issues.

Once again trans people are the punching bag for society. I would not be surprised, unfortunately, if these sorts of comments, when read, drive peers and patients to become another depressing statistic as society continues to fail them simply because they exist, as they always have done. No wonder suicide rates are so high amongst trans people. Absolutely disgusting. I remember how it used to be for other minority groups. This is just another ignorant witch hunt. History will not look back kindly upon these attitudes as we continue to gather more evidence for the biological basis of trans existence.

I would invite everyone here suggesting that trans people are deceiving others to actually look at the research to date. Not the Cass Review. Actually look at the research coming from CHX GIC and internationally: those for whom this is actually their remit of expertise do not agree with your assertions. They have peer-reviewed evidence to refute what you’re saying.

Trans people are exactly who they claim to be. Just because you don’t understand it any more than you understand the biological basis for handedness does not mean you can confidently wade in and be correct. Trans people will always exist, even if you remove treatment. That in itself should give you a clue. I truly hope the comments here aren’t seen by people who may be more emotionally vulnerable during the current hostility being fostered.

www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/s/hRF3A3JooN

I wonder if this case being held in public with so much negative attention in the media will be discouragement in itself for men like DU to use female spaces.

Perhaps there are some of these males reconsidering their future behaviour in these past few days.

Yes and the respondents' deliberate failure to disclose evidence as instructed by a judge. So technically breaking the law.

I think it's more likely that NC, with her clear, ringing voice and confident manner of speaking comes across to him as a posh, middle class home counties English type which grates with some Scots. He's just reminding her that this is Scotland, not England, and it's his court and what he says goes. Just my opinion.

ETA: I really don't think it will make any difference to his decisions.

Thanks! So she will be given time to retrieve the missing information?

the judge should have made clear at the start that an order meant an order, not a request.

Given that biology is central to medical treatment, that men and women have different blood, different sized hearts, lungs, bones etc.,that much medication and treatment has to be sex specific or at least sex sensitive, how can the GMC license a doctor who has plainly stated during this tribunal that he doesn't understand or know clear differences between men and women and that he understands himself, a natal male as biologically female? A person so floridly unwell with gender dsyphoria and therefore also body dysmorphia in my opinion should not be at work. I fear for the patient that he would misgender and mis treat with the wrong doseage or wrong blood. He could put patients lives at serious risk, surely?

I was recently in the A&E department of a large London hospital. I’d asked for a catheter and eventually on my third time of asking the male nurse wandered off to find someone to do it. Enter another male nurse. I requested a female and almost qualified my request with ‘an actual female’ but bit my tongue.

What mildly pissed me off was the first male nurse apologising to the second male nurse because I wouldn’t let him perform the procedure.

That is my understanding. He claims that he is female. Therefore (he says) it would be appropriate for him to treat a patient who had requested female only care unless they objected for some other (transphobic) reason.

But obviously not every woman can make that objection so unless those responsible for her care are sex realists she could end up with Upton and various other men treating and caring for her. It’s really very sinister.

And the most vulnerable of women (as usual) are most at risk especially if the institution they are being treated in is captured with those who object being sanctioned and suspended.

Having had the misfortune to see the 'quality' teaching materials VV and the charity have produced for training universities etc I think calling her is a poor choice. Intellectually she will be completely out of her depth

Yes, I had that feeling too.......

Question to anyone who is a doctor or familiar, is consent and ethics covered in medical training?

Trans people are exactly who they claim to be.

I'm fascinated by the bizarre logic of this. There is no definition of what a trans person is - people are trans by virtue of saying that they are trans. So it's entirely circular. (I think this is what's meant by the phrase "begging the question" in philosophy - correct me if I'm wrong!)

It's a bit like saying "Christians are exactly who they claim to be" - with no acknowledgement that someone might pretend to be a Christian for ulterior purposes, such as claiming asylum.