NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

Morning all.

Kick -off at 10am (so just before 11am). At the end of yesterday JR said that further documents were likely to be released overnight.

I think the plan is to start with ED (though NC might need to re-examine her), before moving on to VV and IB on Friday

Esther Davidson is/was Dr U's Supervisor (the one who he either informed that he was using the female changing room or perhaps he asked whether he could).

@PepeParapluie I get why people are asking how we can ask this without getting a trans woman, but all of that is expecting average women to have any idea of the intricacies of gender identity theory.

That's why @AlisonDonut 's question is something we need to discuss, maybe separately from this thread. If it turns out that every possible question could lead to an accusation of transphobia or aggression (hence care withdrawn) or if the only acceptable questions that will guarantee care from a female professional are questions that most women could be not expected to ask... well that in itself needs to be highlighted and fixed.

This is very reminiscent of the core of Roz Adams' successful case against ERCC. A client wanted assurances that she would see (or was seeing) a female counsellor, and in fact the proposed counsellor was female but there was no acceptable way within ERCC to share that information with the client because the counsellor identified as nonbinary and not female. Roz's attempts to raise this issue and find a reasonable solution led to her being bullied out of her job.

(edited for clarity)

And then you have to consider that the woman for whom same sex care has been requested (it could be by a relative or carer, not just the woman herself) could have a learning disability, or dementia, or be a teenage girl who has never been examined before, or simply not have her glasses on and not be able to see all that well. She could be non-verbal or have english as a second language.

And Upton assumes consent unless she tells him to his man face not to touch her. He got very squirmy when NC asked him what happened if the woman only realised he was male after he'd started the exam, but you could tell he was convinced he had his arse covered with 'refuse at any time'

I would like to hear from NHS Fife if they agree that this is how Upton should approach a request for female same sex care.

Someone more knowledgeable than me suggested I read the testimonies of (ex-)wives of transwomen, AKA transwidows. I did, and I now make the same suggestion to you!

I've read a lot of these testimonies, Mumsnet has long had a thriving series of support threads for women affected by their transitioned/transitioning male partners. Also, have you seen this brilliant film by feminist filmmaker Vaishavi Sundar?

Sorry meant to quote your post @rebmacesrevda - not sure what happened with the formatting

Gardening done 🪣 🥕

I think ED was SP's supervisor and the one who said she'd not been able to get any where with SP's question about whether Upton should be in the CR. Also ED may or may not have been undertaking an initial investigation that was dropped

The film is on to-do list. Officially I need to get on with real stuff today, but here I am, back in the rabbit-hole 😂

That will reinforce how he's in a repressed marginalised minority, the poor little boy, and that he's in danger because the world is against him and nobody loves him.

And why is Vic Valentine giving evidence? What does she know about anything?

Then yesterday named as respondent.

Is Searle actually a respondent now? From yesterday, I thought this was a possibility NC floated if KS didn't agree to being called at a convenient time? But, KS is being called (in July) as a witness, not a respondent.

tbh, given KS' role as flying monkey | drama llama, I am wondering why KS isn't R3 unless KS' role has only become clearer as the tribunal has progressed.

As one might expect given that it's Reddit, moderators have swept through and removed many gender critical comments and anything that implied or stated that Upton isn't a woman.

https://undelete.pullpush.io/r/doctorsUK/comments/1inpif2

And why is Vic Valentine giving evidence? What does she know about anything?

I guess in the same capacity as Maya did, as person from charity dealing with the issue.

A hypothetical question- if a patient had on record specified only female caregivers, for whatever reason, past trauma, religious belief, or even just a desire for privacy and dignity, but was not conscious and required care, Upton would provide it. In absence of a verbal 'no' he assumes consent.

It was surmised that Vic is the anti-Maya, but we'll see!

No it wouldn't.

Because you would have to be educated enough to know to do this.

That leaves a lot of uneducated women and women who don't have English as a first language in a position of vulnerability and UNABLE to refuse.

That creates a whole other world of mess and leaves the door open for indirect discrimination litigation because certain groups are disproportionately affected.

Quite

And otherwise known as the “she didn’t say no” defence

Maybe she is being called to give evidence in the same way Maya F was called?

The new language they’ve invented to replace medical, biological and literary terms as we know them. Very important apparently.

Me too. He has openly admitted that he would treat a patient who had requested same sex care without disclosing that he is male. I imagine he is not faced with this dilemma on a regular basis but it can only be a matter of time. In addition to this his colleagues will now feel unable to raise concerns about his behaviour because they have witnessed how SP has been treated and won’t want to be treated in the same way. So the freedom to raise concerns in relation to this man will have been undermined. This is undoubtedly a dangerous situation.

So is JR questioning the NHS Fife witnesses first, followed by cross-examination by NC? No wonder this is taking such a long time.

Compelling though Dr U's testimony was, I'm much more interested in the NHS Fife witnesses, because their behaviour seems utterly indefensible, and I imagine they will fall apart quite quickly under cross-examination. I do hope NC asks them whether they agree with Dr U that he's a "biological female".

MINORITY ? 😂
Aren’t there 3 other trans identified colleagues in his own dept?

New thread re requesting female HCP here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273561-thread-for-discussing-how-women-can-ask-nhs-for-female-hcps?reply=142132458

thanks @outerspacecadet

Not massively clear but I think it is three total so inc the lovely Beth and in the whole hospital rather than just A&E.

They have not invented new language - they have attached themselves like a vampire squid to the existing language

They should be inventing new language to describe these new situations - like if you want to be seen by a man who thinks he is a woman and does not recognize basic biology then ask for a transwoman