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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

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38
maltravers · 12/02/2025 23:49

Fordian · 12/02/2025 23:07

@nebulousMoose wrote this: it could not better encapsulate what is happening here.

The fucking bare faced, entitled, smug CHEAT that Upton is.
vv-vv here:

"I think the stark differences in status make Sandie Peggie's courage in bringing this action even more remarkable.

Doctors are more important than nurses, younger people are more relevant than older people - Upton is a young doctor. Peggie is a middle aged nurse.

Upton is a man, Peggie is a woman. Not only is Peggie a woman, she is peri-menopausal. Her body is changing, her periods are likely to be irregular, unpredictable, very heavy when they come, and difficult to manage in a practical way, especially at work.

Upton states that he is a woman. He will never have periods, he cannot bear children, he will never go through the menopause. But he still maintains that he IS a woman.

Upton is a young, not yet 30-year-old, male in the prime of life. He has the high status of a practising medical doctor. He is accustomed to deference, by virtue of his sex and his status. So when he claims he IS a woman, he's not claiming the right to the automatic lower and more subservient status that women have. He wants to keep his male status and continue to order women about and have them agree with everything he says.

Peggie is a middle-aged, 50-year-old, woman in perimenopause. Her status is lower than Upton's, lower than any male person, but especially lower than Upton's, because of the hierarchy within the NHS, and because of her age, as women's value as perceived by our sexist, ageist society, diminishes with age. She's likely to have caring responsibilities for both younger and older members of her family at this stage of her life, and her financial status is certain to be lower than Upton's, too.

So even if it were true that it's possible to change sex, to become "the woman you always knew you were", which it isn't, and never can be - even if it were possible, the "woman" Upton claims to be is never going to be an ordinary woman. Not an invisible, undervalued, overworked, dismissed, menopausal woman with a complex and tangible relationship with her own sexed body. Not a real woman."

Thank you for that.

Well he wants what he no doubt considers the spicy bits of being a woman - the big girl pants, sporting his wife’s wedding earrings, vulnerable status. But not the boring drudgery (finding the employment policies online, doing the obs) that’s for the lesser breed of woman.

maltravers · 12/02/2025 23:51

I think NHs Fife is going to lose this, but by the time of judgement everyone’s favourite TRA doctor will have his GRC and so will still be in that CR.

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 23:54

maltravers · 12/02/2025 23:49

Well he wants what he no doubt considers the spicy bits of being a woman - the big girl pants, sporting his wife’s wedding earrings, vulnerable status. But not the boring drudgery (finding the employment policies online, doing the obs) that’s for the lesser breed of woman.

There have been several corrections that the earrings were photoshopped, iirc.

duc748 · 12/02/2025 23:57

Surely he's given them enough rope, with the baby-making stuff alone?

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 23:59

Taytoface · 12/02/2025 23:47

Jeezo I have been in meetings all day so only been able to catch up now.

I have to say if all the tribunals, this has been the most difficult watch/listen.

I didn't see SP in person, but I saw most of DUs evidence. At the beginning, I questioned the tactic of focusing so much on him. He is a clever fucker, and despite what we think of him, I think he handled himself incredibly well in the face of NCs questioning. At the start, I was worried that his evident intellect and answer for everything would be a challenge and was wondering why NC kept him on the stand for so long, sometimes seeming to go over the same ground with no clear conclusions.

But then, the more he spoke, the more he refused even the slightest concession that maybe his self perceived identity isn't the centre of the universe, his dogged attempts to compel language, his total lack of empathy and determination to ruin SP by any means was laid bare. The pattern of his behaviour and the impact on the women he works with, and the women he treats, could only be revealed by sustained repeated forensic questioning.

It is deeply ironic that perhaps if he had more female conditioning, to appease and please and accommodate he would have made a more sympathetic character. But he is a narcissistic man. And he wants domination and total capitulation and failing that to get rid of SP by fair means or foul.

This one will take a while to process.

Edited

I felt the same arc.
Im worried all the verbal gymnastics will mean that “evidence” of harassment will be hard to find. However based on what we’ve already heard, at least a few of the claims against the NHS will stick.

Where I’ve landed is that can’t help thinking how fortunate it was that DU was so clever and aired all the wild trans stuff from the depths of the internet. It was no holds barred and his performance will hopefully make it difficult for people to put their heads in the sand (well for a while anyway!)

Seacatt · 13/02/2025 00:00

Seacatt · 12/02/2025 22:42

May I ask who VV is, please? Thank you.

I have just looked at Tribunal Tweets, I see this is Vic Valentine.

Manxexile · 13/02/2025 00:01

@RethinkingLife - "... I don't blame myself for finding all of this bewildering. This and R2's back and forth on whether the contemporaneous notes are effectively factual or a note of perceptions."

The problem is that many younger people these days - even well educated and seemingly intelligent ones - believe that one's lived experience is all that is important and not reality. [Edit: I've even debated this with a lawyer in his 60s who thinks lived experience is what counts]

If Dr U's perception is that A happened, then that is all that matters, even though A did not happen.

For those who haven't already read it i recommend Helen Pluckrose's book Cynical Theory

murasaki · 13/02/2025 00:01

All of his evidence has been given in such a male manner, he's the manliest man that ever stood up there.

And a duplicitous lying bullying patronising mansplaining science denying man at that.

I sincerely hope he gets a referral for fitness to practice.

I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 00:04

Kristie Higgs wins belief discrimination case
Court of Appeal warns against discrimination based on unreasonable objections to social-media posts
https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/kristie-higgs-wins/

Kristie worked at a school. They fired her following a single complaint about one of her Facebook posts. The Facebook post was regarding her concerns about LGBT+ influences in schools

Extracts:

Higgs, who is also a mother of children in primary school, had shared posts about sex education in primary schools that the tribunal described as “florid”, saying: “They are brainwashing our children!” and “The LGBT crowd with the assistance of the progressive School systems are destroying the minds of normal children by promoting mental illness.” Her employer called her in for a six-hour investigation meeting and then fired her for gross misconduct.

The judgment confirmed that robust speech is protected as a ‘manifestation’ of a religious or philosophical belief— the threshold for ‘objectionable’ expression is high, and employers should not not act disproportionately based on subjective activist complaints.

Sex Matters is grateful to Akua Reindorf KC and Dr Michael Foran of Glasgow University for developing our intervention.

Employers facing offended complaints about personal social-media posts concerning contentious topics should take this judgment as a signal to think twice before jumping into action. They should not automatically assume that if someone shouts “I am offended, my human rights have been breached” there has been any breach of their human rights.

https://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Sex-Matters-submissions-for-hearing.pdf

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 00:05

Manxexile · 12/02/2025 23:44

I'm sure somebody has already made this point, but if not...

AIUI a patient has to consent to be treated and/or touched by a Dr.

If a female patient makes it clear that they only want to be treated and/or touched by a female Dr (ie a woman) but a TW dr proceeds to treat and/or touch them without revealing his male sex (which is what I have understood Dr U to have said he would do unless the patient said "No - I don't want you to treat and/or touch me") then wouldn't that put the TW Dr in jeapordy of facing an assault charge?

Seems to me the female patient is making it clear that their consent is conditional on the Dr being female. If the Dr is not female - regardless of what the Dr might believe - then there is no consent.

Edited

Correct.

The female patient has a reasonable belief that they had requested same sex treatment based on explicitly requesting a woman treat them and witholding consent from a man that that person has to be a woman in line with what an average person would reasonably understand to be a woman.

If a patient feels they have been mislead there'd be a problem because the law in this country is grounded in this concept of reasonableness of the average person.

Therefore if a male decided they were a woman and could treat a female witholding consent from a man practitioner, they would be on thing ice because this isn't in line with the patients expectation. Especially if this is a male who can not even hide behind 'legal' sex of a piece of paper.

It would be hard for someone to defend an accusations of assault in those circumstances.

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2025 00:08

Vic Valentine, manager at Scottish Trans, very keen on self id being brought in.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 13/02/2025 00:08

But what if he could "hide behind 'legal' sex of a piece of paper"? Are you still sure of the outcome?

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 00:10

Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:25

Would he complain if a woman saw him and asked for a Cis woman as he still would be seen for what he is (male)?
I get the feeling women aren't safe around him unless they are appeasing his needs.

Well as he admitted in court, there's possibly nothing Sandie could have said or done that wouldn't have caused offense or distress and so I would also think that there's possibly nothing a patient could say that also wouldn't be upsetting to him.

TitusMoan · 13/02/2025 00:11

Lunde · 12/02/2025 23:04

I think that one of the most chilling things that DU said in evidence related to how they would treat a psychiatric patients who could not accept they were a woman. DU said that they would record the patient as "aggressive". This is an extraordinary statement where MH patients are extremely vulnerable and a doctor's decision can deprive them of liberty and/or subject them to forced treatment.

So doctor DU would make it all about accepting his language and narrative of being a biological woman. Therefore DU would be prepared to label a patient and potentially subject them to coercive treatment for not accepting his "truth".

I was a psych inpatient for extended periods of time, many years ago. That answer of his chilled me to the bone because I realised that as a very young woman in an already frightening psychiatric unit, Dr U would have scared the absolute shit out of me. He was going on to his psychiatric rotation after the A&E one, wasn’t he?

Look what he’s done to someone who wouldn’t go along with what he wanted. Look what he’s said about how he’d respond to a psychiatric patient. How can we accept his claims of being ‘empathic’? How can we trust that he’s been professional while treating the drunk patient in A&E who’s called him a man? - because that scenario WILL have happened.

Boiledbeetle · 13/02/2025 00:11

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 23:37

@Boiledbeetle In bed yet?

Tired Wide Awake GIF by SEIZON

Yes! But still wide awake!!

Waves to @FreedomandPeace

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 00:14

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 23:27

And let's not forget cake recipes being deleted!

Youtube Omg GIF by Rosanna Pansino

what?!

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 13/02/2025 00:18

Phew, finally caught up - it's taken me all day! Many thanks to the usual suspects.

Something that I haven't seen suggested has been bugging me: what if BU got advice from the BMA, not by email reply, not by phone directly, but over a pint in the pub? There would be no record kept of a "mate, your case is weak as it stands, but if there's been anything else she's done ...". Completely off the record and untraceable.

Manxexile · 13/02/2025 00:19

I don't know the legal practicalities of this, but I presume birth certificates are a matter of public record that courts and employment tribunals must take note of.

Is there a copy of Dr U's birth certificate in the evidence bundle? Has he been asked what his birth certificate records his sex as?

Has he been asked why he thinks it is wrong?

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 00:21

@Scout2016

Someone I know was there and reports lots of fluttered eye lashes and Princess Di head tilts (sorry Di) such as Glinner has highlighted many a time being the go-to when pretending womanhood.
Also creepy as hell.
Interestingly, she got the same strong vibes of being reminded of a couple of film characters that I got from watching on line.
Wife not in the wall of sad today apparently.

Could you ask your contact if she noticed this bizarre exchange about a Flying Spaghetti Monster and climate change?

"How is she allowed to say that you're male in a way that you consider appropriate?"

"But I'm not male."

[then starts talking about climate change and flying spaghetti monsters, genuinely]"

It wasn't caught by TT apparently.

"It wasn't caught by TT (as he's been rattling along) but I heard the same.

He compared ppl not believing TWAW to ppl having a false belief in a flying spaghetti monster.
It was wild!
[all in an entirely reasonable voice]"

So sadly doesn't seem to have been picked up by many.

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1889681188597456896?s=46

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1889681188597456896?s=46

murasaki · 13/02/2025 00:22

Manxexile · 13/02/2025 00:19

I don't know the legal practicalities of this, but I presume birth certificates are a matter of public record that courts and employment tribunals must take note of.

Is there a copy of Dr U's birth certificate in the evidence bundle? Has he been asked what his birth certificate records his sex as?

Has he been asked why he thinks it is wrong?

That would be a good question. But he's off the hook re questions now I think.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 00:23

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 00:21

@Scout2016

Someone I know was there and reports lots of fluttered eye lashes and Princess Di head tilts (sorry Di) such as Glinner has highlighted many a time being the go-to when pretending womanhood.
Also creepy as hell.
Interestingly, she got the same strong vibes of being reminded of a couple of film characters that I got from watching on line.
Wife not in the wall of sad today apparently.

Could you ask your contact if she noticed this bizarre exchange about a Flying Spaghetti Monster and climate change?

"How is she allowed to say that you're male in a way that you consider appropriate?"

"But I'm not male."

[then starts talking about climate change and flying spaghetti monsters, genuinely]"

It wasn't caught by TT apparently.

"It wasn't caught by TT (as he's been rattling along) but I heard the same.

He compared ppl not believing TWAW to ppl having a false belief in a flying spaghetti monster.
It was wild!
[all in an entirely reasonable voice]"

So sadly doesn't seem to have been picked up by many.

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1889681188597456896?s=46

https://x.com/wingsscotland/status/1889681188597456896?s=46

I don't think he quite understands the secular humanist concept of the flying spaghetti monster.

PachacutisBadAuntie · 13/02/2025 00:26

Can't sleep

Has anyone called him Dr Dumpty yet?

HootyMcBoobs · 13/02/2025 00:26

But a flying spaghetti monster is EQUALLY as impossible as a man becoming a woman.
NEITHER belief is "worthy of respect in a democratic society" or whatever the phrase is.

NEITHER is possible.

In fact, we have MORE evidence that men can never become women, because we have proof of the immutability of sex through chromosomes that can never be changed, That is not a belief, it is a demonstratable fact.

Spaghetti monster? Nobody has proven or disproven it's existence yet so I guess the jury is still out on that one.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 13/02/2025 00:27

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 00:23

I don't think he quite understands the secular humanist concept of the flying spaghetti monster.

Huh, Pastafarianism - there's a religion that might fill the emptiness inside me

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 13/02/2025 00:30

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 13/02/2025 00:27

Huh, Pastafarianism - there's a religion that might fill the emptiness inside me

Pack it in. I'm both unable to sleep AND hungry for pasta now with a craving for a deeply spiritual sauce now. 😁

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