NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

Would he complain if a woman saw him and asked for a Cis woman as he still would be seen for what he is (male)?
I get the feeling women aren't safe around him unless they are appeasing his needs.

It probably would be at least a hate incident. But more importantly it would probably get you nowhere because by law a possessor of a (female) gender recognition certificate is an actual woman.

Yes, he stated very clearly that there was no way Sandie could have raised her concerns (about him in women's changing room) that would have been acceptable to him.
If she described him as a man, then that was misgendering, and he considered that a hate crime - and discussed reporting it to the police.
If she described him as a transwoman, then she was discriminating and being transphobic by suggesting that TW should not use the women's changing room.

NC specifically asked if there was any way he would have found appropriate for Sandie to explain her issues with him being in women's CR - he said no.

And this presumably goes for patients too.
He said that if a female patient requested a female doctor, he'd go to see them. IF they then objected then he would get someone else to see them. How could the patient object without raising the issue either that he's a man or a transwoman. According to him that's discrimination, a hate crime and may require police intervention.

And let's not forget cake recipes being deleted!

And we know it (the CR misgendering incident) was described in the Trust Staff Governance Committee minutes in May 24 as a Hate Crime.

"WN advised there were 16 violence and aggression (staff) incidents
reported in December 2023/January 2024, 128 incidents since April
2023. There were 8 no harm, 7 minor harm, 1 moderate harm
incidents. 2 incidents were reported to the police, 1 in AU1 and 1
in Ward 42. 1 incident has been considered a hate crime, a
protected characteristic incident in the female changing area and 1
sexual harassment incident in theatre recovery. In the report there
is a comparison between HSCP and Acute Division incidents."

https://www.nhsfife.org/media/4kulbqyp/staff-govenance-comittee-final-boardbook-final-20240513.pdf

If she described him as a man, then that was misgendering, and he considered that a hate crime - and discussed reporting it to the police.
If she described him as a transwoman, then she was discriminating and being transphobic by suggesting that TW should not use the women's changing room.

He also thought that SP waiting until he was alone was her cornering him.

I am guessing that if SP had spoken to him when others were present then this would have been 'outing' him

There is no way to avoid it when someone is looking for offense

A woman is anyone who is female or is in denial of being male.

To quote Bewilderness's rules:
15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

Therefore if a man decides he is not the default option, he automatically become the alternative 2nd status human. Thus pushing women down the hierachy. Women can either choose to accept this man's decision, or admit they are actually the subhuman other. Women who are compliant are permitted to have a status of human male servant rather than being reduced to the subhuman status because the man is generous. Women can not control their own destiny or have full autonomy over her body if they can not define themselves and their own biology.

Thanks Harassedevictee.

it does sound like they were running around like headless chickens, because 'transphobia'.

Thanks for the explanation.

Yes I believe Sandie when she says she didn't ask about them.
But I am a bit mystified about why it would have been so dreadful if she had. They seemed to be acting like it would have been beyond the pail to mention it, when I would have thought it was fairly uncontroversial and basic level biology. That said, I hadn't expected to hear a Dr spout such unscientific nonsense.

For those around him who were complict in the witch hunt and are now themselves getting burnt, it shouldn't come as a suprise that someone who is either a full blown fantasist or a commited and witting liar in one major walk of life has also blurred the truth in other aspects. The "your mind's so open your brain has fallen out" quote seems apt.

Agree 100%
So disappointed not to have seen the cross questions today
I wonder how he looked during - anyone here see it?

Wasn't there an experiment undertaken a few years ago where they gave people prosthetic facial scars before a job interviews, removed them at the last minute and then asked the participants if they felt discrimination during the interview?

I think one of the exchanges with NC indicated that asking for a cis woman, would be used as evidence of transphobia.

@Boiledbeetle In bed yet?

😁

(I don't care if it's petty)

DU doesn't identify with science!

@Boiledbeetle will be busy sorting out some lovely gifs for us all to enjoy tomorrow.

I really look forward to seeing them …… something to smile at in the middle of this shocking case.

Dr Upton doesn't even believe in gametes!
I wonder how he knows which one of his parents he gestated inside and which one brought the sperm?
How can we tell?

Its like, as female patients, we could be faced with having to fake that we're OK with a man for examinations or complain and be told we're thinking the wrong way/showing hate.
In the same way there was no way for Sandie to react against him as a man in the womens facilities. He wanted her to validate him with no reflection on whether it was fair for her.
If Fife win then the judge is agreeing women shouldn't ask men to leave the women's spaces?

I agree, without Tribunal Tweets (ably assisted by Michael Foran during the audio black hole) we would not be able to follow this and other cases and women’s rights would continue to languish under this pernicious ideology, which is exploited by men like Upton. The transparency TT have brought to these obscure proceedings have helped women so much in my view. Thank you @Justabaker and the rest of the TT team, I will be subscribing properly to your substack.

Here it is

Invisible Scars | Psychology Today United Kingdom

Our beliefs shape the reality we experience and hold us captive

If you go out thinking that you are discriminated against then you may well find it all around you

I'm sure somebody has already made this point, but if not...

AIUI a patient has to consent to be treated and/or touched by a Dr.

If a female patient makes it clear that they only want to be treated and/or touched by a female Dr (ie a woman) but a TW dr proceeds to treat and/or touch them without revealing his male sex (which is what I have understood Dr U to have said he would do unless the patient said "No - I don't want you to treat and/or touch me") then wouldn't that put the TW Dr in jeapordy of facing an assault charge?

Seems to me the female patient is making it clear that their consent is conditional on the Dr being female. If the Dr is not female - regardless of what the Dr might believe - then there is no consent.

Someone I know was there and reports lots of fluttered eye lashes and Princess Di head tilts (sorry Di) such as Glinner has highlighted many a time being the go-to when pretending womanhood.
Also creepy as hell.
Interestingly, she got the same strong vibes of being reminded of a couple of film characters that I got from watching on line.

Wife not in the wall of sad today apparently.

who knows what actually happened in the changing room, but if i believed Dr Upperty (i don't) it was not terrible.

I say this because i am and have always been fearless so if he came in to my changing room just the once i would have verbally chased him out.

Jeezo I have been in meetings all day so only been able to catch up now.

I have to say if all the tribunals, this has been the most difficult watch/listen.

I didn't see SP in person, but I saw most of DUs evidence. At the beginning, I questioned the tactic of focusing so much on him. He is a clever fucker, and despite what we think of him, I think he handled himself incredibly well in the face of NCs questioning. At the start, I was worried that his evident intellect and answer for everything would be a challenge and was wondering why NC kept him on the stand for so long, sometimes seeming to go over the same ground with no clear conclusions.

But then, the more he spoke, the more he refused even the slightest concession that maybe his self perceived identity isn't the centre of the universe, his dogged attempts to compel language, his total lack of empathy and determination to ruin SP by any means was laid bare. The pattern of his behaviour and the impact on the women he works with, and the women he treats, could only be revealed by sustained repeated forensic questioning.

It is deeply ironic that perhaps if he had more female conditioning, to appease and please and accommodate he would have made a more sympathetic character. But he is a narcissistic man. And he wants domination and total capitulation and failing that to get rid of SP by fair means or foul.

This one will take a while to process.

In fact I'd have thought his statement that he would treat a female patient despite the patient clearly saying they only consented to a female Dr treating them was grounds for a complaint to the regulatory body straight away