Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

OP posts:
Thread gallery
38
Scout2016 · 13/02/2025 00:32

@FannyCann will do! Not been mentioned so far but there have been so many WTFs and I haven't had the full low down yet as she was knackered. Sounds...erm..interesting!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 00:32

He compared ppl not believing TWAW to ppl having a false belief in a flying spaghetti monster.

That's an exact reversal. It doesn't even make sense. You start to see this pattern, it was one I picked up on very early.

TheJoyousBee · 13/02/2025 00:34

I watched some of the proceedings on Friday and again tuned in very briefly on Monday as I had other commitments. I chose not to try and join again because I found Upton so utterly awful to watch and listen to so these threads have provided great details of the proceedings. On Friday i noticed the performative way he displayed his ‘womanhood’. There was nothing natural about his physical movements. It’s all an act that he wants to force everyone else to join in on.

He reminds me of the reports on the personality of Shipman. I am not saying he is about to start murdering his patients but he shares some of the same personality traits. He is arrogant, believes he is much more intelligent than everyone else and believes he is untouchable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 00:34

In sceptic circles, the "flying spaghetti monster" is a sceptic pisstake of god or any improbable metaphysical thing that people claim the existence of but can't be proved.

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 00:35

Harassedevictee · 12/02/2025 22:52

@Datun At 13:40 on an earlier thread you asked I'm sure someone said you would automatically put someone on temporary suspension while you opened an investigation. Which might be the first investigation?
I think that was me several threads ago. I wanted to respond as I didn’t explain it well at the time.
It is good practice for an employer to have a suspension policy to make sure it only happens when appropriate. It shouldn’t be automatic, a process is followed to see if it is appropriate. This is the NHS Scotland guidance
https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ytbjqetj/conduct-policy-guide-to-suspension-1-2-last-updated-september-2022.pdf
It is about mitigating risk of further harm whilst an investigation is carried out. An extreme case would be if one employee claimed their manager assaulted them.
The NHS Scotland guidance does include an allegation of bullying and harassment maybe a situation where the person under investigation cannot be in work.
In this case DU alleged SP had bullied and harassed them. It was the Christmas period and DU claimed they saw SP in the CR ( we know this is disputed) and was distressed they would be on the same shift.
I believe this is why the initial suspension was implemented because they were allegedly on the same shift.
What should have happened is the hospital should have had initial conversations with SP and DU to ascertain facts. Ideally they would then have checked the shift schedules and altered shifts to make sure they didn’t meet while they investigated further. I think this was the initial investigation.
From something NC said they now have the shift schedules and I wouldn’t be surprised if it supports SPs version.
I waited to reply as I know how fast the threads move during the hearing.
https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ytbjqetj/conduct-policy-guide-to-suspension-1-2-la

Thank you, this is helpful. Where I work, a member of staff accused another of bullying. One of them was moved to a similar department a few miles away whilst the investigation was ongoing (they both worked 9-5).

Didn't Dr Upton say that his and colleagues' shifts couldn't be disclosed because it was private information?! I wonder how that works in practice? "Is Rachel on today?" "Sorry, I can't tell you".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 00:36

I agree @TheJoyousBee - it was really hard to watch.

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 00:41

Thanks Scout

The brief bit I heard of him via phone in on Monday he talked very fast.

Everyone else had to talk slowly with long pauses so the judge could write it all down.

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 00:44

Also does anyone know if crowdfunding money is taxable?

Sandie's fund just shy of £25k now.
I would hate a sizeable chunk of it to go to this shit government, so many of whom appear to believe in the spaghetti monster as well as women with penises and home grown cervixes.

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 00:48

What he wants is to be the Malaga Airport type of "woman", I suppose. The other type of woman is not in the picture at all.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall, I'm the womaniest of them all, I am. Me me me me me, ooooh, meeeee.

Needspaceforlego · 13/02/2025 00:51

FannyCann · 13/02/2025 00:44

Also does anyone know if crowdfunding money is taxable?

Sandie's fund just shy of £25k now.
I would hate a sizeable chunk of it to go to this shit government, so many of whom appear to believe in the spaghetti monster as well as women with penises and home grown cervixes.

I wouldn't have thought so, surely it's classed as a gift, online version of a whip round.

It's not earnings, nor is it a charity donation so it must be classed as a gift

Mountaingoat23 · 13/02/2025 01:01

nauticant · 12/02/2025 16:15

JR: And re timing, we are looking at July - J July?!

If that's about resumption after adjournment, that doesn't surprise me at all. What we can do though is write to the ET and point out that they will therefore have months to sort out their "technical issues" to re-enable public remote access for resumption.

This made me laugh out loud while locked out of the tribunal yesterday https://x.com/SDewherst/status/1889281091401322737

x.com

https://x.com/SDewherst/status/1889281091401322737

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 01:03

maltravers · 12/02/2025 23:49

Well he wants what he no doubt considers the spicy bits of being a woman - the big girl pants, sporting his wife’s wedding earrings, vulnerable status. But not the boring drudgery (finding the employment policies online, doing the obs) that’s for the lesser breed of woman.

My comment about Malaga Airport and the mirror on the wall was in response to this post. Quote fail! Ooops.

I was thinking as I wrote it, Why does a man want to turn into a woman anyway? It doesn't make any sense. I don't get it.

Then it occurred to me that it's about self gratification, a total fantasy. What is it they say about self aggrandisement?

TwoDrifters2 · 13/02/2025 01:47

A random thought: SP can remember the resus patient in question and the precise date. Given that, can the hospital records not be checked? I’m assuming there can’t have been too many children with a peanut allergy admitted that night & surely they had a parent/guardian/adult with them who would most assuredly remember if a nurse had abandoned them during what would have been a fairly stressful time?

Heggettypeg · 13/02/2025 01:54

NecessaryScene · 12/02/2025 19:44

But they genuinely do believe that there's sufficient evidence to support that trans people's brains are different and don't match their bodies and therefore some people might genuinely be born in the wrong sex.

The really amazing thing about this phenomenon is it manages to produce female brains in male bodies that act exactly like male brains. All behaviour patterns are statistically male. So weird.

Well, assuming for a moment that it might be true, it won't be the whole brain that's different, will it, only a bit or bits of it.
So the bit that's about being ok with your body could be different while the male behaviour compartments were firing on all cylinders like any other man's.
Which makes it quite a leap of logic to decide that because that bit of brain is different, we should automatically treat such a person, legally and socially, as being of the sex they feel they are.

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 02:05

TwoDrifters2 · 13/02/2025 01:47

A random thought: SP can remember the resus patient in question and the precise date. Given that, can the hospital records not be checked? I’m assuming there can’t have been too many children with a peanut allergy admitted that night & surely they had a parent/guardian/adult with them who would most assuredly remember if a nurse had abandoned them during what would have been a fairly stressful time?

Bear in mind what NC said: "a pack of lies".

Not one shred of that so-called evidence stands up to scrutiny.

Brainworm · 13/02/2025 02:55

Earlier this week, DU referenced 'growing evidence' showing that sustained exposure to cross sex hormones brings about such powerful physiological changes that when analysing blood tests, sex-specific reference ranges no longer apply to natal sex but are more aligned with gender identity.

He used this argument to counter NC's argument that sex isn't nebulous but is often fundamental to investigating potential diagnoses.

fanOfBen · 13/02/2025 03:31

TwoDrifters2 · 13/02/2025 01:47

A random thought: SP can remember the resus patient in question and the precise date. Given that, can the hospital records not be checked? I’m assuming there can’t have been too many children with a peanut allergy admitted that night & surely they had a parent/guardian/adult with them who would most assuredly remember if a nurse had abandoned them during what would have been a fairly stressful time?

Upton claims it wasn't that patient, iirr.

fanOfBen · 13/02/2025 03:37

Manxexile · 13/02/2025 00:19

I don't know the legal practicalities of this, but I presume birth certificates are a matter of public record that courts and employment tribunals must take note of.

Is there a copy of Dr U's birth certificate in the evidence bundle? Has he been asked what his birth certificate records his sex as?

Has he been asked why he thinks it is wrong?

Yes, a matter of public record. You can order a copy of his birth certificate, if you like, from scotlandspeople dot gov. It still has him under his birth name, and male. I went as far as to look it up but then decided I didn't want to spend actual money!

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 03:47

Heggettypeg · 13/02/2025 01:54

Well, assuming for a moment that it might be true, it won't be the whole brain that's different, will it, only a bit or bits of it.
So the bit that's about being ok with your body could be different while the male behaviour compartments were firing on all cylinders like any other man's.
Which makes it quite a leap of logic to decide that because that bit of brain is different, we should automatically treat such a person, legally and socially, as being of the sex they feel they are.

Where is the standard, though? Where is the template that people are cut from? Why are people all different, if there's a standard? And if that sounds like a nonsensical question, try 'how can the brain/mind be separate from the body?'

I would also like to know how many people have bodies that they really love. The body that they were born with, the most wonderful body in the world. How many people? One in 100? One in 10? How many of us are dissatisfied with our bodies in one way or another?

Dissatisfaction with our body is just what we think, what we imagine, and how we feel. Where is the mind, then? is it in the brain? Is it in the gut? Is it in our heart? No. It isn't separate. Mind and body are integrated, one organism. Our bodies feel and our minds interpret.

If people think they were born into the wrong body, unless our lives are strange folk tales, and some malevolent or mysterious spirit deliberately put a person into the wrong body because that's the story, they aren't in the wrong body. They are in their own body. That imperfect, peculiar, marvellous body.

Heggettypeg · 13/02/2025 04:06

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 03:47

Where is the standard, though? Where is the template that people are cut from? Why are people all different, if there's a standard? And if that sounds like a nonsensical question, try 'how can the brain/mind be separate from the body?'

I would also like to know how many people have bodies that they really love. The body that they were born with, the most wonderful body in the world. How many people? One in 100? One in 10? How many of us are dissatisfied with our bodies in one way or another?

Dissatisfaction with our body is just what we think, what we imagine, and how we feel. Where is the mind, then? is it in the brain? Is it in the gut? Is it in our heart? No. It isn't separate. Mind and body are integrated, one organism. Our bodies feel and our minds interpret.

If people think they were born into the wrong body, unless our lives are strange folk tales, and some malevolent or mysterious spirit deliberately put a person into the wrong body because that's the story, they aren't in the wrong body. They are in their own body. That imperfect, peculiar, marvellous body.

I agree with you, actually. I wasn't implying a separate "gendered spirit" stuck in the wrong body. Just that when you think, for one example, about the interactions between eyes and brain when we see something, it's clear that relations between body and brain are complex, with plenty of scope for something to go a bit askew. Also, some mental health conditions respond to drugs rather than psychotherapy. So I suppose one can't rule out the possibility that some people have an inborn quirk of perception in their brain that makes them feel alienated from their sexed body. But rearranging the law and society around that, is quite another matter.

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 04:22

Heggettypeg · 13/02/2025 04:06

I agree with you, actually. I wasn't implying a separate "gendered spirit" stuck in the wrong body. Just that when you think, for one example, about the interactions between eyes and brain when we see something, it's clear that relations between body and brain are complex, with plenty of scope for something to go a bit askew. Also, some mental health conditions respond to drugs rather than psychotherapy. So I suppose one can't rule out the possibility that some people have an inborn quirk of perception in their brain that makes them feel alienated from their sexed body. But rearranging the law and society around that, is quite another matter.

Yes. Plenty of scope for something to go a bit askew, as you say, and several interesting possibilities as to why that might happen.

Rearranging the law and society is what's been happening by brute force, ramming genderwoo ideology down our throats for the last few years. I was appalled when I realised - relatively recently - that outrageous statements made by trans rights activists such as "misgendering is literal violence" were believed, and encouraged, even. I had no idea.

I came onto mumsnet in order to be able to talk about these things. I'm very grateful that we can.

Harassedevictee · 13/02/2025 05:07

@StellaAndCrow It is highly unlikely shift patterns were kept private. They are created by an employer for the smooth running of the business.

Provided they have been disclosed it should be a fairly straightforward process to map which shifts SP and DU were both on.

FinallyASunnyDay · 13/02/2025 05:15

nebulousMoose · 13/02/2025 03:47

Where is the standard, though? Where is the template that people are cut from? Why are people all different, if there's a standard? And if that sounds like a nonsensical question, try 'how can the brain/mind be separate from the body?'

I would also like to know how many people have bodies that they really love. The body that they were born with, the most wonderful body in the world. How many people? One in 100? One in 10? How many of us are dissatisfied with our bodies in one way or another?

Dissatisfaction with our body is just what we think, what we imagine, and how we feel. Where is the mind, then? is it in the brain? Is it in the gut? Is it in our heart? No. It isn't separate. Mind and body are integrated, one organism. Our bodies feel and our minds interpret.

If people think they were born into the wrong body, unless our lives are strange folk tales, and some malevolent or mysterious spirit deliberately put a person into the wrong body because that's the story, they aren't in the wrong body. They are in their own body. That imperfect, peculiar, marvellous body.

Absolutely. I always wonder how theories of consciousness work with genderism. My understanding is probably very limited and I am not a neuroscientist, but my simplistic understanding is of brains as Bayesian prediction engines, interpreting raw sensory data from the world and creating/refining a best guess model of the world to make useful and reliable predictions. Brains are there to service our bodies and permit them to live, stay safe, grow and reproduce. Genderism seems to be a a beief/model/prediction of the world gone awry. Which fits, for me, with the non-standard (neurodiveegent, traumatised, immature) brains that are often the victims of the model. The ehole complicated edifice is just a post-hoc rationalisation of pathological wiring. I don't know, it's 5am and I can't sleep, so possibly I am writing nonsense.

FayeRC · 13/02/2025 06:50

To those who don't know me, I have filed a similar employment tribunal complaint against a large public sector employer in England's side, also represented by Naomi Cunningham. Second preliminary hearing will be in February. More info available on CrowdJustice.com, pls search for Faye Russell-Caldicott.

The last weekend before the prel hearing is now approaching, all support would be hugely appreciated.

KnottyAuty · 13/02/2025 07:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2025 00:32

He compared ppl not believing TWAW to ppl having a false belief in a flying spaghetti monster.

That's an exact reversal. It doesn't even make sense. You start to see this pattern, it was one I picked up on very early.

Well DU did seem to have a certain zeal about him. A human male stating “I am a biological woman” did seem to me to be much further into the category of philosophical belief than “sex is immutable”.

Can any legal peeps speak to how DU’s beliefs might fare against the Grainger Test?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread