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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

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38
Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 23:03

Up above you

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 23:03

Saveusernsme · 12/02/2025 22:53

Well I wonder how many would get past the first hurdle of actually raising a concern? How many people would just go against their gut to keep the peace and not make it awkward or cause upset.

The NHS has a history of doubling down on this. There was an awful incident which I believe is still being investigated where a patient, on a female only ward, was raped. The hospital insisted that it didn’t happen as there were only females on the ward. CCTV revealed that there was in fact a trans identified woman on the ward and that the rape did take place. This and many many other reasons are why we need to have complete clarity in who is providing our care, who we working with, and who get to see us at our most vulnerable.

I had heard about that case and was left numb.

You go to hospital when you are at your most vulnerable, often helpless and due to some crazy ideology those responsible for protecting you actually put you in harm's way. Then they turn away, whistle, and pretend it never happened.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2025 23:03

For me DU’s use of the court jargon and all the complaint keywords made it seem liked he’d swotted up.

He had no hope of controlling the narrative without that.

Brainworm · 12/02/2025 23:04

Well I wonder how many would get past the first hurdle of actually raising a concern? How many people would just go against their gut to keep the peace and not make it awkward or cause upset.

DU maintains that anyone who fails to consider him a female/ woman is transphobic, therefore, if you want a female doctor and refuse him, at any stage in treatment, you are transphobic. He stated that there are many reasons why any one patient might not want to be seen by any one doctor, that is their right, and he wouldn't get in the way of this right. He also said that it's not an accurate formulation to discount him as a female doctor when it comes to requests to be seen by a female doctor only.

As I type this I can hear his voice in my head and it's grim. He was beyond patronising and arrogant. He gave the impression that he thought his intellect to be far greater than anyone else in the room and that those who didn't agree with him were just too dim to understand

Lunde · 12/02/2025 23:04

I think that one of the most chilling things that DU said in evidence related to how they would treat a psychiatric patients who could not accept they were a woman. DU said that they would record the patient as "aggressive". This is an extraordinary statement where MH patients are extremely vulnerable and a doctor's decision can deprive them of liberty and/or subject them to forced treatment.

So doctor DU would make it all about accepting his language and narrative of being a biological woman. Therefore DU would be prepared to label a patient and potentially subject them to coercive treatment for not accepting his "truth".

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 23:06

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 23:03

I had heard about that case and was left numb.

You go to hospital when you are at your most vulnerable, often helpless and due to some crazy ideology those responsible for protecting you actually put you in harm's way. Then they turn away, whistle, and pretend it never happened.

Just because people get a buzz out of 'Be kind' it doesn't mean that common sense should leave the building

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2025 23:07

It's happened before

When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”.

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-653048

Fordian · 12/02/2025 23:07

@nebulousMoose wrote this: it could not better encapsulate what is happening here.

The fucking bare faced, entitled, smug CHEAT that Upton is.
vv-vv here:

"I think the stark differences in status make Sandie Peggie's courage in bringing this action even more remarkable.

Doctors are more important than nurses, younger people are more relevant than older people - Upton is a young doctor. Peggie is a middle aged nurse.

Upton is a man, Peggie is a woman. Not only is Peggie a woman, she is peri-menopausal. Her body is changing, her periods are likely to be irregular, unpredictable, very heavy when they come, and difficult to manage in a practical way, especially at work.

Upton states that he is a woman. He will never have periods, he cannot bear children, he will never go through the menopause. But he still maintains that he IS a woman.

Upton is a young, not yet 30-year-old, male in the prime of life. He has the high status of a practising medical doctor. He is accustomed to deference, by virtue of his sex and his status. So when he claims he IS a woman, he's not claiming the right to the automatic lower and more subservient status that women have. He wants to keep his male status and continue to order women about and have them agree with everything he says.

Peggie is a middle-aged, 50-year-old, woman in perimenopause. Her status is lower than Upton's, lower than any male person, but especially lower than Upton's, because of the hierarchy within the NHS, and because of her age, as women's value as perceived by our sexist, ageist society, diminishes with age. She's likely to have caring responsibilities for both younger and older members of her family at this stage of her life, and her financial status is certain to be lower than Upton's, too.

So even if it were true that it's possible to change sex, to become "the woman you always knew you were", which it isn't, and never can be - even if it were possible, the "woman" Upton claims to be is never going to be an ordinary woman. Not an invisible, undervalued, overworked, dismissed, menopausal woman with a complex and tangible relationship with her own sexed body. Not a real woman."

Thank you for that.

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 23:08

It is one thing for him to desire that his colleagues accept him as a woman. It is quite another to expect anyone else to especially patients. But this was where the law was going.

ditalini · 12/02/2025 23:09

Saveusernsme · 12/02/2025 22:53

Well I wonder how many would get past the first hurdle of actually raising a concern? How many people would just go against their gut to keep the peace and not make it awkward or cause upset.

The NHS has a history of doubling down on this. There was an awful incident which I believe is still being investigated where a patient, on a female only ward, was raped. The hospital insisted that it didn’t happen as there were only females on the ward. CCTV revealed that there was in fact a trans identified woman on the ward and that the rape did take place. This and many many other reasons are why we need to have complete clarity in who is providing our care, who we working with, and who get to see us at our most vulnerable.

It's one of the chilling effects of cases like this:

Every time we see health boards punishing staff for "misgendering" and/or refusing to share changing spaces with trans identified males.

Every time we see/hear other health care staff run to support the misgendered member of staff.

Every time we see the one sided reporting by mainstream media.

Every time we read about legislation and guidance that lets organisations such as the GMC mislead about a person's sex.

We're being told as patients that it's probably best to just shut up, suck it up, self-exclude if you've got a problem with being treated by a male healthcare professional because there's no guarantee that anyone's got your back.

And they've taken all the language so that we can't even talk about it in a way that doesn't risk offence.

And they're training up the staff of the future to believe that women who don't consent to care from a male is a bigot.

We need the cases because at this point it's our best chance of the madness stopping, but at the same time it's terrifying to see how widespread the gender ideology doublethink is in our institutions.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 23:10

Brainworm · 12/02/2025 23:04

Well I wonder how many would get past the first hurdle of actually raising a concern? How many people would just go against their gut to keep the peace and not make it awkward or cause upset.

DU maintains that anyone who fails to consider him a female/ woman is transphobic, therefore, if you want a female doctor and refuse him, at any stage in treatment, you are transphobic. He stated that there are many reasons why any one patient might not want to be seen by any one doctor, that is their right, and he wouldn't get in the way of this right. He also said that it's not an accurate formulation to discount him as a female doctor when it comes to requests to be seen by a female doctor only.

As I type this I can hear his voice in my head and it's grim. He was beyond patronising and arrogant. He gave the impression that he thought his intellect to be far greater than anyone else in the room and that those who didn't agree with him were just too dim to understand

As I type this I can hear his voice in my head and it's grim. He was beyond patronising and arrogant. He gave the impression that he thought his intellect to be far greater than anyone else in the room and that those who didn't agree with him were just too dim to understand

That is why the tribunal feed has to be public - the written version of the proceedings conveys none of this

Scout2016 · 12/02/2025 23:11

I am very frustrated that we still don't have an answer to what TRAs think a woman is or what makes him one. All we know is what it's not and what you don't have to do (not legal status, appearance, body modification, anything to do with biology because that doesn't exist, or sex because that doesn't exist either...) Three days I have been hoping to finally get an answer. All I know is that if you are not a robot you are biological. And I don't think that's true, because lots of things are not either....

I really wish NC had asked why one medical professional referring to another medical professional's chromosomes would have been so offensive. Is that because some people have chromosomal abnormalities they wish to keep private?

Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:13

In hospital settings, how do we now ask for "an actual woman not a man". In reality if we use those words would it be a hate crime?

Datun · 12/02/2025 23:16

SinnerBoy · 12/02/2025 22:26

Did anybody else note that today, Upton referred several times to "the hate incident "? That, to me, is significantly different to his email, titled "hate crime."

Is he trying to downplay things, because he's realised that it's a streaking, flaming blue pile of mad bollocks, which wouldn't surve scrutiny from average seven year old?

I think this is completely accurate.

Rowing back on stuff because the implications have suddenly become very clear

StellaAndCrow · 12/02/2025 23:16

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 12/02/2025 22:21

I'm confused by this because we only heard about SP not doing the IBS didn't we?

But then the Times article quotes this,

"Dr Kate Searle, Upton’s line manager, said in a statement: “Beth has all the notes including the incident where the other person appeared to leave the room and stopped doing resus because Beth entered. Unfortunately she didn’t raise it at the time.” x

Utterly shocking and I can see why NC was so sure that the allegations could have been "career ending"

This is the bit that I'm confused about too NotMaroon.

If he gave the impression to Dr Searle that Sandie STOPPED DOING RESUS because he entered the room, it makes me think he gave exaggerated reports to Dr Searle/the trust investigators/the BMA.

Then when it turned out he'd be going to court, he realised he'd have to provide evidence, so gave more realistic/likely accounts.

There is an argument I guess that by "stopped doing resus" he meant stopped working in the resus room.

But crikey if I'd said that, and someone had misinterpreted me to mean that someone had actually stopped in the act of resuscitation, I'd instantly correct them and make very sure that the info was understood and recorded correctly.

Wondering again, did he hope the ambiguity might be helpful i.e. trust/BMA think she has done something terrible and advise accordingly.
Though it's not so helpful when you're giving evidence in court.

SinnerBoy · 12/02/2025 23:16

shrinkingthiswinter · Today 16:31

Gosh, yes, they’ll be lost without him

Lost? Twin Peaked, more like.

Scout2016 · 12/02/2025 23:17

Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:13

In hospital settings, how do we now ask for "an actual woman not a man". In reality if we use those words would it be a hate crime?

"Cis woman" seemed to be the magic words for Upton. "Woman" is not clear enough.

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 23:18

Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:13

In hospital settings, how do we now ask for "an actual woman not a man". In reality if we use those words would it be a hate crime?

the answer is united we stand you just have to say it vulnerable or not, and seek help if shit happens. We all have to stand up to this now. Wherever shit like this occurs.

Waitwhat23 · 12/02/2025 23:18

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 22:43

please be aware there are many women on here who are active in the real world and have been banging on about this issue for many years, have lost their jobs been harassed by the police, and loony TRAs and even so called feminists.

And our speech is heavily monitored here one can get banned. So there is no word, in a word.

I suppose you can refer to TRAs trans right activists if that helps

It seems to have eased a bit over the past year or so but there was a period where the speech here was very heavily monitored. I had a post deleted for using the word peak. Another poster had a post deleted for posting a biscuit emoji. The word cult couldn't be used even in a comparative or descriptive way. The posters here are very, very used to policing their own language to meet the (board specific) talk guidelines where language can be simultaneously too specific and also too general, where it can be ok in one context but not another. Where if the misogynist monitors are watching a thread (generally pronouns type ones), there is more reporting than normal.

As bannedontherun says, there is no word, in a word.

But as a pp says, you will definitely be deleted if it's a pejorative word.

nocoolnamesleft · 12/02/2025 23:19

"Doing resus" to me would mean that cardiopulmonary resuscitation is underway, and that the individual is actively participating (though could be eg gaining access or warming up the defib, rather that doing compressions/bagging).

CoI Doctor

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 23:21

Scout2016 · 12/02/2025 23:11

I am very frustrated that we still don't have an answer to what TRAs think a woman is or what makes him one. All we know is what it's not and what you don't have to do (not legal status, appearance, body modification, anything to do with biology because that doesn't exist, or sex because that doesn't exist either...) Three days I have been hoping to finally get an answer. All I know is that if you are not a robot you are biological. And I don't think that's true, because lots of things are not either....

I really wish NC had asked why one medical professional referring to another medical professional's chromosomes would have been so offensive. Is that because some people have chromosomal abnormalities they wish to keep private?

As far as I know, SP denies asking about chromosomes.

There may even be a DU / BU acknowledgement that SP didn't.

I don't blame myself for finding all of this bewildering. This and R2's back and forth on whether the contemporaneous notes are effectively factual or a note of perceptions.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2025 23:22

"Cis woman" seemed to be the magic words for Upton.

Because he will have asserted his control. He may then graciously allow it.

RogueFemale · 12/02/2025 23:23

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 23:01

I'm off to bed ready for another riveting day tomorrow

Over £23,000 now ❤

The massive crowdfund support for Sandie is lovely - nearly 1,500 supporters in 48 hours and nearly £25K donated.

It's also so pleasing that DU's crowdfund has struggled to reach £1,900 (as at 11.20pm tonight), and some of the 141 'supporters' are people donating £1 merely for the opportunity to use a username such as 'Dr Uptons Big Girl Pants'.

NebulousHog · 12/02/2025 23:24

In a resus area though it’s usual for staff to come and go as well - phoning next of kin, fast bloods, getting adrenaline, getting gowns, phoning other specialities

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 23:25

Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:13

In hospital settings, how do we now ask for "an actual woman not a man". In reality if we use those words would it be a hate crime?

I have female only ambulance crews for my hospital appointments, "actual women" is the phrase I use when I'm booking them! I ask for women only, they confirm, and then I state "that's actual women yes? ". I've not been admonished for saying It so far.

It seems to work as so far I've only had actual woman turn up! Of course there may be no male women employed at my Trust!

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