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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 15:50

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

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38
eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 22:41

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/02/2025 22:39

No, it’s sarcasm. Do your own work.

Edit to add sorry for the cross post Boiled.

Edited

Mostly, people have been brilliant on this site.

Seacatt · 12/02/2025 22:42

Bluebootsgreenboots · 12/02/2025 16:14

Thank you for new thread Naiticant!
July??!!!
I might have to take Friday off work to watch NC question VV. I have a feeling it will unravel the many confusions I have about trans identity.

May I ask who VV is, please? Thank you.

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 22:43

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 22:26

Please assist me with a word that is acceptable for use on this forum whereby I can convey that it is totally unacceptable to me and I consider an affront when a man claims to be biological female and imposes himself on the female estate, and I shall use it from hereon, cheers

please be aware there are many women on here who are active in the real world and have been banging on about this issue for many years, have lost their jobs been harassed by the police, and loony TRAs and even so called feminists.

And our speech is heavily monitored here one can get banned. So there is no word, in a word.

I suppose you can refer to TRAs trans right activists if that helps

Signalbox · 12/02/2025 22:43

RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 22:20

Identifying however you please, is not the same as a complete on the record denial of biology under oath, whilst working in a field where knowledge of biology is essential to not hurting people in your care.

The fact that he’s denying biology won’t come as news to the GMC. They have allowed him to register as female on their public register. They already know that he is lying about being female so they are unlikely to sanction him now for lying about his sex to patients. The GMC are part of the problem. This is institutional capture.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15
RedToothBrush · 12/02/2025 22:43

Nameychangington · 12/02/2025 22:14

A lot of doctors on this Reddit are in support of Dr Upton, think that his identity should trump patient choice, and that patients who don't like it should not be treated. Is Dr Upton a bad apple, or is the barrel rotten?

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1inpif2/patient_consent_question_is_dr_upton_correct_in/

Barrel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65671018
35,000 cases of sexual misconduct or violence in NHS in five years

More than 35,000 incidents of sexual misconduct or sexual violence - ranging from derogatory remarks to rape - were recorded on NHS premises in England between 2017 and 2022.
Rape, sexual assault or being touched without consent accounted for more than one in five cases.
Most incidents - 58% - involved patients abusing staff
The data that came back from trusts showed at least 20% of incidents involved rape, sexual assault or inappropriate physical contact - including kissing. Other cases included sexual harassment, stalking and abusive or degrading remarks. One in five cases involved patients abusing other patients - although not all trusts provided a detailed breakdown.

And

Although more than 4,000 NHS staff were accused of rape, sexual assault, harassment, stalking, or abusive remarks towards other staff or patients in 2017-22, the BMJ and Guardian investigation found that only 576 have faced disciplinary action.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/17/more-than-6000-sex-attacks-in-hospitals-in-the-last-three-years-says-new-report-18623649/
6,500 rape and sex attacks – including gang rape and child assault – in hospitals in the last three years

At least 2,088 rapes and 4,451 sexual assaults were reported between January 2019 and October 2022 – a rate of 33 a week.
The data does not detail whether the offences were carried out at NHS or private facilities. But a shocking one in seven took place on hospital wards.
And just 4.1 per cent of the crimes resulted in the suspect facing a charge or summons.
Founder of WRN Heather Binning said the figures were ‘just the tip of the iceberg’ and that it shows hospitals are ‘just not safe spaces’

And

Ms Binning said: ‘These statistics are jaw-dropping. We began this investigation because of concerns about the safety of women and children on NHS wards, but we are horrified at what we have uncovered.

‘The volume of sexual assaults and rapes is even more horrific when you consider that this data covers the pandemic, when much of the country was in lockdown and hospitals were supposedly even more vigilant.’
The crimes reported include the rape of a girl under 13 and the rape of a woman by ‘multiple offenders’ in hospitals in the West Midlands.
Three young girls and a boy reported being raped in facilities in Cambridgeshire while six girls were said to have been attacked in hospitals in Lancashire.
Jo Phoenix, the Reading University criminology professor who wrote the report, said the findings showed NHS trusts were ‘failing in their duty to protect both patients and staff’.
She added: ‘The fact that 95.9 percent of all reports were either no-further-actioned or not recorded (officially as crimes) is also truly appalling. Although there are no reasons given within the research for this alarmingly low figure, what is clear is that there appears to be ingrained inertia in dealing with this safeguarding and policing failure.’

WRN researchers sent freedom of information requests to 43 police forces. Eight, including those in Scotland and Northern Ireland, were unable to provide the data.
Ms Binning added: ‘The true figures are going to be undoubtedly much higher. Crimes of this nature notoriously go under reported as it is and in addition to that there is a lot of missing data.’

I'd have to say, that stats like this, in an environment where doctors seem to struggle with the concept of consent, don't understnd why single sex requests might be reasonable and apparently don't understand how babies are made WHILST also being responsible for the safeguarding of those in their care, doesn't exactly make for a combination where you have any confidence whatsoever that the above has a chance of being addressed.

So I think I'm calling barrel.

Hospital corridor

35,000 cases of sexual misconduct or violence in NHS in five years

Rape, assault or being touched without consent accounted for more than one in five cases.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65671018

Lunde · 12/02/2025 22:45

LeavingBigLaw · 12/02/2025 21:41

Just caught up with today's events.

This point by @Tallisker caught my eye as well, although I am not sure where he previously said it was a 2 hour drive.

DU told J that he left work at 12:30/1 and the email of complaints was sent around 3.15am. J asked DU about how he prepared it. DU said from notes on his phone, or something like that.

If it took him about an hour to get home then he would have arrived 1:30 / 2 and had an hour - 90 mins to prepare it. Sounds plausible even if not many of us can imagine doing such a thing at Christmas. But if it took him 2 hours, then he's home around 2.30 / 3 and he's done it in a 15 - 45 mins window? No idea how long this email is, but J questions suggest he's interested in how long DU had to prepare it.

I'm wondering whether DU had been mentally drafting a complaint about SP for a long time...

I wonder if DU had already drafted a complaint and was just waiting to add a dramatic finale? They had obviously been keeping records that targeted SP - and DU's behaviour in court rather belies the claims they made that evening.

We have seen an arrogant, controlling and belligerent person - not losing their cool and arguing the toss with barristers and judges over language and definitions ad nauseum without any sign of distress when called out by NC.

Yet we are expected to believe that on Christmas Eve being asked to leave the CR (which they didn't because they were determined to win the "it's my right as a woman" argument) - left them so "traumatised" that they ran around A&E "crying and shaking" to the consultant on duty, needed to sit with the consultant and be coaxed through their "distress" before being escorted to their car because they were "afraid" and required 2 months of sick leave. It seems that they were ready with a performative scene to act out when the opportunity to get back at SP arose if she said something, anything really, when no other witnesses were present because DU had laid their groundwork of being super special and "vulnerable".

The 2 different DU's don't match - the fragile person who was terrified of an frank exchange of views and the tough activist who would bulldoze their arguments through all opposition. But the performance gave DU controll of the narrative and had Fife bending over backwards to use terms such as "hate incident". Where the problem lies for DU is not being able to let it go with SP being branded transphobic but DU's determination to end SP's career by throwing the kitchen sink of overegged "fitness to practice" concerns.

It will be interesting to see what story DU told originally but I am sceptical that "spoke to me abruptly" on a busy night in A&E and "asked me to do observations" that are beneath my status as a doctor would have caused SP to be suspended - DU didn't even think these incidents important enough to report until months after the incidents when wanting extra ammunition.

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 22:46

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 22:38

Medicine is not my field so I may be misunderstanding

A female patient asks to see a female doctor, she gets seen by a trans doctor who does not pass. The patient discretely asks other staff (hopefully avoiding a charge of bigotry and transphobia) and they all agree that the doctor is female.

Still not satisfied the patient contacts the GMC for confirmation that the doctor is female and the GMC confirms this.

The patient's consent has been falsely obtained.

How would it ever be possible to complain about this as all of the relevant organizations have lied to the patient?

I believe your understanding is correct. The situation is absurd, and that's why we're all here tearing our hair out. My point was, the absurd situation was created by the passing of the GRA, which permitted people to legally change the sex recorded on their birth certificate. Since then, institutions including the GMC have followed suit. I'm not defending their stance; just pointing out that it was the change to legislation that created this mess in the first instance.

I hope that makes sense. It's been a long day and I'm sure someone else can explain it better than I can!

Lunde · 12/02/2025 22:48

Brainworm · 12/02/2025 21:53

I find it impossible to believe that the investigation could not nail down what shifts they were on together throughout the period and what incidences of breathing issues involved either or both of them.

His oral evidence never suggested an actual resuscitation event, seem KS either added that in or it was what he later claimed.

The way KS's evidence is reported, it sounds as though her understanding was that SP stopped resuscitating a child because DU entered the resus. Surely if she thought that, she would have taken immediate action?!

DU didn't report this "concern" until 2-4 months after the event - DU was not able to narrow down a date or even month that it occured.

yourhairiswinterfire · 12/02/2025 22:49

"Dr Kate Searle, Upton’s line manager, said in a statement: “Beth has all the notes including the incident where the other person appeared to leave the room and stopped doing resus because Beth entered. Unfortunately she didn’t raise it at the time.”

I'm a bit confused. '..has all the notes including the incident..' What notes is she referring to? I thought Upton didn't note the non incident and that's why he can't give the date it happened?

Or by 'notes' does she just mean allegations he put in writing way later?

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 22:49

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 22:46

I believe your understanding is correct. The situation is absurd, and that's why we're all here tearing our hair out. My point was, the absurd situation was created by the passing of the GRA, which permitted people to legally change the sex recorded on their birth certificate. Since then, institutions including the GMC have followed suit. I'm not defending their stance; just pointing out that it was the change to legislation that created this mess in the first instance.

I hope that makes sense. It's been a long day and I'm sure someone else can explain it better than I can!

Reb, your explanation is perfect

Activists, politicians and 'Be kind' have a lot to answer for

Scout2016 · 12/02/2025 22:49

@nauticant I found the comments by a white middle class straight man likening himself to Black people experiencing racism and lesbians experiencing homophobia really offensive. Likewise whatever his mention of a woman who has had a hysterectomy still being treated as a woman was (I remember gasping and thinking wtf? Surely he didn't say that? But not the detail sorry)
Also that he thinks women should have to disclose previous sexual abuse /assault before they can be afforded any privacy, and even then it's them who need to go elsewhere.
Which by his own logic would be othering and outing for them, aside from being by a normal person's logic inhumane.

Appalonia · 12/02/2025 22:50

petesdragfrom · 12/02/2025 20:09

Thanks kind TERF elders, DH has put fags in the bin and poured washing up liquid on them.

I'll come find the threads people are talking about. Honestly how have you not all gone completely insane.

This is terrifying because it's such insanity that it's even been given an actual legal platform but I'm sure I'm about 5 years behind so I'll come find the threads people have mentioned.

We did go insane. And then we got busy...

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/02/2025 22:51

eulittleb831 · 12/02/2025 22:41

Mostly, people have been brilliant on this site.

Hmm I do hope that isn’t a sideways “be kind”.

Harassedevictee · 12/02/2025 22:52

@Datun At 13:40 on an earlier thread you asked I'm sure someone said you would automatically put someone on temporary suspension while you opened an investigation. Which might be the first investigation?
I think that was me several threads ago. I wanted to respond as I didn’t explain it well at the time.
It is good practice for an employer to have a suspension policy to make sure it only happens when appropriate. It shouldn’t be automatic, a process is followed to see if it is appropriate. This is the NHS Scotland guidance
https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ytbjqetj/conduct-policy-guide-to-suspension-1-2-last-updated-september-2022.pdf
It is about mitigating risk of further harm whilst an investigation is carried out. An extreme case would be if one employee claimed their manager assaulted them.
The NHS Scotland guidance does include an allegation of bullying and harassment maybe a situation where the person under investigation cannot be in work.
In this case DU alleged SP had bullied and harassed them. It was the Christmas period and DU claimed they saw SP in the CR ( we know this is disputed) and was distressed they would be on the same shift.
I believe this is why the initial suspension was implemented because they were allegedly on the same shift.
What should have happened is the hospital should have had initial conversations with SP and DU to ascertain facts. Ideally they would then have checked the shift schedules and altered shifts to make sure they didn’t meet while they investigated further. I think this was the initial investigation.
From something NC said they now have the shift schedules and I wouldn’t be surprised if it supports SPs version.
I waited to reply as I know how fast the threads move during the hearing.
https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ytbjqetj/conduct-policy-guide-to-suspension-1-2-la

https://workforce.nhs.scot/media/ytbjqetj/conduct-policy-guide-to-suspension-1-2-last-updated-september-2022.pdf

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 22:52

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 22:49

Reb, your explanation is perfect

Activists, politicians and 'Be kind' have a lot to answer for

Thank god! 😅

"Be kind" can kiss my fucking arse.

Saveusernsme · 12/02/2025 22:53

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/02/2025 22:38

Medicine is not my field so I may be misunderstanding

A female patient asks to see a female doctor, she gets seen by a trans doctor who does not pass. The patient discretely asks other staff (hopefully avoiding a charge of bigotry and transphobia) and they all agree that the doctor is female.

Still not satisfied the patient contacts the GMC for confirmation that the doctor is female and the GMC confirms this.

The patient's consent has been falsely obtained.

How would it ever be possible to complain about this as all of the relevant organizations have lied to the patient?

Well I wonder how many would get past the first hurdle of actually raising a concern? How many people would just go against their gut to keep the peace and not make it awkward or cause upset.

The NHS has a history of doubling down on this. There was an awful incident which I believe is still being investigated where a patient, on a female only ward, was raped. The hospital insisted that it didn’t happen as there were only females on the ward. CCTV revealed that there was in fact a trans identified woman on the ward and that the rape did take place. This and many many other reasons are why we need to have complete clarity in who is providing our care, who we working with, and who get to see us at our most vulnerable.

Brainworm · 12/02/2025 22:54

DU didn't report this "concern" until 2-4 months after the event - DU was not able to narrow down a date or even month that it occured.

If one of my direct reports raised this concern with me 2-4 months after the event, I would consider this a serious conduct or capability issue. I would investigate the reported incident, but I would also take action with regard to the significant shortcomings of the direct report.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 22:56

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/02/2025 22:51

Hmm I do hope that isn’t a sideways “be kind”.

I hope not! Because those words are definitely NOT in my vocabulary!

Bannedontherun · 12/02/2025 22:57

@eulittleb831 honest question have you been here before?

We take no prisoners

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2025 22:58

Or by 'notes' does she just mean allegations he put in writing way later?

That's how I interpreted it, but I guess as she's going to be a respondent she can explain at length.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 23:00

NotLikeACourt · 12/02/2025 22:34

I've just been re-reading the TT of SP on the stand (again) and the thing that strikes me over and over is how composed she remains, and how she never ever muddies the water - even under cross. She doesn't try to bring DU down (he will do this himself in due course...), or use cheap or snidey shots. Unlike the patronising 'Not like a court', 'That's what a deadline is' 'that's what contemporaneous means' etc etc

Factual, to the point. DIGNIFIED.

I've been supporting someone the last year going through a vindictive harassment claim and the stress is unrelenting - I cannot begin to fathom doing it on such a public platform.

I am in awe of SP.

Let them speak. Let them speak.

She was an A&E nurse of 30 years - she’d be exactly the nurse you’d want if you were in trouble. Calm under pressure. She was very dignified.

Also she refers to DU as Beth throughout if I recall? And in the dept used DU’s preferred pronouns.

On the other hand it really jarred with me that DU referred to her throughout as “The Claimant”. It made her nameless and felt rather cold.

For me DU’s use of the court jargon and all the complaint keywords made it seem liked he’d swotted up.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 23:01

I'm off to bed ready for another riveting day tomorrow

Over £23,000 now ❤

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15
Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:01

There's a crowd funder for Sandie, I couldn't see another post talking about it and it's probably be noted earlier in the day in this chat. Just saying if anyone hasn't seen it and is interested.

Enough4me · 12/02/2025 23:03

As it's been in this thread, that's great. I've donated 😊

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