NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

I have a question about something I may have missed.

The Times article reports: 'Dr Kate Searle, Upton’s line manager, said in a statement: “Beth has all the notes including the incident where the other person appeared to leave the room and stopped doing resus because Beth entered. Unfortunately she didn’t raise it at the time.”'

Then NC Cross-examining Upton, Cunningham asked: “Do you agree the resus [resuscitation] incident is the most alarming of all three matters you raised?”
Upton said that “if we are talking purely about patient safety, someone refusing to communicate in resus is more serious”

Is that what Dr U himself has said in his own statement?

Did he say that she stopped doing resus, or that she failed to communicate (to his satisfaction)? They're very different things.

Is this what he was trying to cover up - i.e. he's said to the court that she asked him to do obs, but gave a more serious complaint to non-court people (Dr Searle/BMA)?

When NC asked him

Has this come out in the evidence yet? I've been following quite closely but may have missed some.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/4bb83679-200c-4820-aa1c-0d90ae5ff6b7?shareToken=792d25aaa5287339291fbad2a322700c

(archive link for same article - https://archive.is/uUFOE)

Thank you very much to anyone who can clarify.

My sister is a Doctor and actually she'd go against my opinions on here and say that if there is a clinical need the sex of the person meeting that need isn't relevant. This is especially true in a critical care scenario.

To a point I agree with that opinion.

However most of the time we do have agency and options and we should be able to request the right healthcare for our needs.

Right at the start Naomi Cunningham emphasised the serious implications for both Upton and Peggie (re professional conduct) of the allegations made by Upton - for Peggie if found to be true and for Upton if found to be untrue or exaggerated.

I think it might have been thread 8 or maybe thread 6.

@StellaAndCrow

I think Monday morning’s tribunal tweets would be the place to look.

I remember spotting three bear traps early on in her questioning.

I don't think it's clear, but we know from Kate Searle's statement that her understanding was that SP "appeared to leave the room and stopped doing resus because Beth entered."

I've made two separate complaints to the GMC about Dr Upton today.

First, that he stated under oath that he would attempt to treat a patient who asked for a female doctor, thereby acting without the patient's consent. Which is an assault.

Second, re his evidence (I'm not a man, you don't need a man and a woman to make a baby, drs make a best guess what sex a baby is etc) showing he is unfit to practice medicine as he is either a) knowingly lying under oath b) so ignorant of human biology that he really believes these things to be true or c) so mentally unwell that he has lost touch with reality and believes these things to be true. Whichever it is, he's unfit to practice.

I've also raised a concern to GMC. On what he said in his evidence and also why they issued a new GMC Number when, by their own statement it "stays with you for your career"

A possible scenario is that Upton tells Kate Searle that Sandie did leave a resus patient. He then speaks to BMA who advise that he could be in trouble for not formally reporting resus incident. Upton then removes resus allegation from formal complaint.

If that were true then either there was no resus incident and he lied to Kate Searle or there was an incident and he's lying now because he should have reported it

The resus case is just the one where Sandie asked him to do obs. She didn't stop resuscitating a patient! Here's what Upton said in his evidence in chief, according to TT:

JR: refers to bundle. You describe a situation where a patient went into resus. What stage in your shift
DU: Last hour of a midnight finish, 11:05-10
JR: What was the situation
DU: Had a patient brought in by ambulance who was shirt of breath.
DU: Can be tricky to pick up patients at this time- night shift take over and there are fewer doctors. Felt I had enough time to avoid handing over a half finished job.
JR: What is the usual protocol
DU: Depends on how well the person is- observations taken and ECG often done. Seen by a doctor for history and examination
JR: Who normally does observations
DU: Normally nursing staff
JR: What happened on this occasion
DU: Usually let nursing staff do it, often talking and gesturing during ECG, which affects readings. I tend to wait for them to finish
DU: If they are very unwell we have to do everything at one. I judged they were not unwell enough for me to jump in. Let SP go in and do observations
JR: What happened next
DU: Was keeping an eye on the time, noted SP had left so will start my role
DU: I can let her finish if she has not
JR: Did SP return
DU: Yes, she said I can do observations, unusual
JR: Why
DU: Not unusual for anyone who is free to do some sets of observations. Unusual for this to happed in resus doe to severity of patients
JR: What did SP do next
DU: SP left the room, not sure where she went
DU: I finished the observations and wrote it down. Saw SP and other nurses after, SP told the others calmly that I had done observations
JR: How did you feel
DU: Just unusual

If that was the case, though, it wouldn't be a good look for Sandie either. If that was the case.

Does anyone know, regarding the resus incident, was Upton saying that Sandie stopped attempting to resuscitate a patient, or that she left the area of A&E called resus and went somewhere else like triage or minors? Naturally tribunal tweets is abbreviated and I wasn't sure what the allegation was. Obviously both serious but alleging that a nurse stopped attempting resuscitation in order to not be in the same place as him is an extremely serious thing.

Edited to say PP answered as I was typing!(slowly, fat fingers)

If that were true then either there was no resus incident and he lied to Kate Searle

This option would be a fairly good look for Sandie

Left the area/room called resus, I'm pretty sure. No suggestion that the patient was ever actively being resuscitated.

If we are in England, can we complain about this Dr, even tho he's in Scotland? His views are so worrying and dangerous, whether he's in A&E or in psychiatry ( or anywhere, really ). I really think we need to do this, after having listened to his sexist, anti reality views on human bodies!

JR: Did SP return
DU: Yes, she said I can do observations, unusual
JR: Why
DU: Not unusual for anyone who is free to do some sets of observations. Unusual for this to happed in resus doe to severity of patients
JR: What did SP do next
DU: SP left the room, not sure where she went

So when SP said that, did DU reply? If so, what did he say?

The resus incident is barely an incident.

Patient goes into resus. There are short of breath but not that unwell.

Upton thinks Sandie is doing obs but she isn't. He cracks on with taking a history.

Sandie comes back in, sees Upton there and asks if he can do the obs seeing as he's with the patient.

It's a total non event. Probably happens daily in A+Es all across the country.

I thought that it was the area. There's a large area in the Vic A&E with a Resus sign - from experience, they take you there if there's a danger that you might need resuscitation.

Another massive reading session to catch up on today's threads. Thanks to @nauticant @ickky and others for keeping us up to date. Well, what can I say, another wild ride today. NC was magnificent, Sandie's crowdfunder is magnificent, the newspaper articles are, mostly, magnificent.

A non-event except that an older, senior female nurse had asked a junior male doctor to do something he felt was menial (sorry, 'unusual'). The power dynsmic did NOT suit him. Obviously a hate crime. HONESTLY.

DU: Usually let nursing staff do it, often talking and gesturing during ECG, which affects readings. I tend to wait for them to finish
DU: If they are very unwell we have to do everything at one. I judged they were not unwell enough for me to jump in. Let SP go in and do observations
JR: What happened next
DU: Was keeping an eye on the time, noted SP had left so will start my role
DU: I can let her finish if she has not
JR: Did SP return
DU: Yes, she said I can do observations, unusual
JR: Why
DU: Not unusual for anyone who is free to do some sets of observations. Unusual for this to happed in resus doe to severity of patients
JR: What did SP do next
DU: SP left the room, not sure where she went
DU: I finished the observations and wrote it down. Saw SP and other nurses after, SP told the others calmly that I had done observations

@AnnaMagnani I agree that the resus incident is a nothing but am wondering how it was initially reported by Upton

Thanks NotAComputerPerson, was driving me mad trying to find that bit...

--edited to thank fanofben too, missed yours first time....

If my understanding is correct, when the GMC issue a new license number because a doctor has changed sex there is no way for a patient to confirm the doctor's true birth sex.

A concerned patient looking to the GMC to confirm their doctor's true sex will be told a lie sanctioned by the GMC.

The GMC will be helping the doctor to undermine their patient's informed consent.

Just caught up with today's events.

This point by @Tallisker caught my eye as well, although I am not sure where he previously said it was a 2 hour drive.

DU told J that he left work at 12:30/1 and the email of complaints was sent around 3.15am. J asked DU about how he prepared it. DU said from notes on his phone, or something like that.

If it took him about an hour to get home then he would have arrived 1:30 / 2 and had an hour - 90 mins to prepare it. Sounds plausible even if not many of us can imagine doing such a thing at Christmas. But if it took him 2 hours, then he's home around 2.30 / 3 and he's done it in a 15 - 45 mins window? No idea how long this email is, but J questions suggest he's interested in how long DU had to prepare it.

I'm wondering whether DU had been mentally drafting a complaint about SP for a long time...