NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

It's not a stupid question at all. I imagine there will be more discussion of this with the first respondent.

Have been following the last few days but taken a while to catch up. Thank you to everyone for posting your takeaways from the livestream /TT, and for all the insightful commentary. I'm in awe of SP and NC tonight.

I've been in this fight for a lot of years and I'm still a mere child compared to those who've been in it for the real long term.

It doesn't matter when people join. Just that more do and the numbers continue to grow.

archive version in case share token lapses: https://archive.is/uUFOE

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

They also really need individual sinks, and that takes up more space.

I think the answer in schools is single sex cubicles, and a small number of unisex toilets for pupils who have permission to use them.

"Upton said that “if we are talking purely about patient safety, someone refusing to communicate in resus is more serious” and rejected Cunningham’s claim that identity “flattens everything”"

So did SP leave resus or refuse to communicate? And if she refused to communicate how did she abruptly ask DU to do obs? Was there more than one resus incident?

My DD and DS won't use school loos at all - I don't think that is unusual. DD's school has vape alarms in loos and music rooms. Bliddy awful but that is for another thread

My best moment was definitely DU conceding that his threshold for raising complaints might need to change, but he meant he needed to lower the bar. How I laughed. Haha. Someone saying you are a man is clearly a hate incident, but abandoning a resus patient(or not) is a Communication issue. I really really want to go right through all the evidence so far, particularly Sandies evidence of the incidents versus DU’s. I have loved watching NC in action. I have found it hard hearing him constantly describe some very mild words as transphobic and bigoted aggression, and would have liked him to be even more forensically questioned about which bit of the Christmas Eve discussion was so bad. I think she was quite polite!
I worry that the adjournment gives Fife a chance to get their act together and consider the best way forwards. So far this reminds me of ERCC , where no one had thought for a second if they were being fair to service users or Roz, it was all rsoh stuff. Although ignoring the law and failing to follow their own procedure is difficult to get round.

Well I’m all caught up again, TT and MN. Off over to X now for todays updates.

“If DU is claiming that SP left her post during a serious medical emergency,”

The incident never happened. The “escalation of previous behaviours” which Upton mentioned in his complaint were “previous behaviours” of Nurse Peggie staying out of the changing room or leaving the women’s changing room. The “escalation” was Peggie staying in the changing room and telling Upton she was uncomfortable with him in it.

He then added on that she’d: replied to a colleague asking about the child patient without looking at him; left him to do the obs on a patient and gone back to triage.

In her evidence Nurse Peggie said she’d worked with him on a child patient in anaphylactic shock in resus, which she remembered was Halloween because it was a snickers chocolate that caused it.

He claimed he couldn’t remember her working with him in resus, nor could remember it being Halloween.

Basically he couldn’t remember anything inconvenient to his story or anything unrelated to his outrage at being treated with insufficient warmth and appreciation.

And doctors do obs all the time. I've just been in hospital and doctors did my obs frequently (nurses did the regularly, but doctors did them at least daily, and more around the surgeries I was having...)

They don't just need to be asked they need an anonymous survey so they aren't worried about getting it wrong, trying to pick the 'kind' answer or displaying inclusive credentials.

Ideally with questions that cover situations that get them actually thinking through the consequences e.g. you have blood on you from dealing with your period would you prefer single sex, mixed sex or cubicles with central sinks?

A boy in year above you has been harassing you and following you about you want to shake him off so you head to the loo would you prefer single sex, mixed sex or cubicles with central sinks? Etc.

Babbling in anger. Going to switch myself off now.

Thanks all for the updates, the threads, the insight, the shared rage.

Oh, that is lovely.

They say Mother Nature's a bitch, but I hear she's a terf.

(Cf Queen JKR)

Another Fife weekly paper. No sympathy for Upton in the comments.

https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/24924369.trans-doctor-told-nhs-fife-intent-use-womens-changing-room/?ref=socialflow

Ah yes - DD's at a girl's school - trad loos - won't go behind the closed door to the corridor never mind the cubicles.

DS co-ed although well behaved bunch - won't go in for fear of the vape fumes.

Local co-ed comp has the open loo system and the boys & girls I know who go there like them and happy to use. So I had assumed this wasn't controversial - interested to hear it still might not help my lot...

They also really need individual sinks, and that takes up more space.

And slows down the queue.

You have to wait for the previous person to use the loo, and the washbasin, and the hand drier, before you can go into the cubicle and use the loo.

In single sex multi user toilets, you only have wait for the previous person to use the loo before you can go into the cubicle and relieve your bladder. Then you all congregate at the sinks and driers, elbow to elbow. Much faster.

@RedToothBrush thanks for looking that up - really interesting!

What kind of hell would break loose if JR had to drop DU mid ET?!

Thank you, @NotAComputerPerson I had missed that part in SP’s case. If he’s found to have lied about the resus incident, and his story is pure fabrication to support his otherwise flawed argument, could he be struck off?

Oh wow - a PCC hearing can easily take 2 years from first call to end of follow up - assuming it is "just" an education/disciplinary. If someone has managed to "bring the profession into disrepute" it might be a lot quicker. Anyway it is a horrible process - even if acquitted - so DU will maybe have some empathy for what Sandie went through by the end of it

Basically he couldn’t remember anything inconvenient to his story or anything unrelated to his outrage at being treated with insufficient warmth and appreciation.

Or anything that might indicate that he had concern for the patient. If they took the story at face value, were NHS Fife not also worried that a patient in anaphylactic shock was apparently abandoned by a nurse, yet nobody reported the incident? Will be very interesting to hear their explanation of this.

"
12th February 2025
I’m a trans HCSW and feel your pain, no woman should feel harassed and abused just for simply getting changed after work. I find it disgusting. I’m with you Beth, you deserve so much better than this treatment. You are a human female and a human being. 🩷🤍"

Oh the irony, from the DU Love and Treats comments.

OK, I am OFF.

Might be a silly question but I don't know how these things work- could they bring in an expert witness to testify that men can't turn into women?

❤ £20,000 ❤