NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

I am so pleased the sunshine is lighting up the egg in the GMC's face for its insane policy of self id. The GMC are awful - demonstrably racist in their investigations, utterly captured by the TRA lobby and currently dismantling medical competence by sliding PAs into the workforce. If the daylight hadn't been quite so bright, I would have assumed that DU would be provided with a new number, a training post and a job in a gender clinic. Now, that might be trickier.

As for doctor's reddit, I think it is fair to say it is populated mainly young, mouthy, inexperienced drs. They are not impressive but also, i think, not representative. I hope!!

And boy has it surpassed it!

He's on just over £1.5K and Sandie...

Just gone over £18,000

I've seen this shared a few places

As I have observed before, we have three sexes in Scotland now: male, female, and rapist. Nicola Sturgeon confirmed this as recently as last month. In the course of an interview with the Financial Times the former first minister was asked if Adam Graham, the rapist convicted as Isla Bryson, is a man or a woman. According to Sturgeon: “That person was a rapist.”

Wow. Thats a quote.

Trans doctor Beth Upton ‘tried to ruin career’ of changing room row nurse

www.thetimes.com/article/4bb83679-200c-4820-aa1c-0d90ae5ff6b7?shareToken=792d25aaa5287339291fbad2a322700c

Thanks kind TERF elders, DH has put fags in the bin and poured washing up liquid on them.

I'll come find the threads people are talking about. Honestly how have you not all gone completely insane.

This is terrifying because it's such insanity that it's even been given an actual legal platform but I'm sure I'm about 5 years behind so I'll come find the threads people have mentioned.

Sorry. The utter fuckers. Just as this is all going on.

SNP considers plan to allow more mixed-sex school toilets

www.thetimes.com/article/64988568-1ea5-4f16-aa0c-83ecebd44a02?shareToken=78405bd44dcee9bc922335c44615eb31

I hope a copy of that is blutacked to the changing room door by the morning

@RedToothBrush I was thinking about this earlier when reading TT from the end of JR’s questions to DU, when he basically projected his paranoia onto SP, suggesting she would ‘rally the troops against him’ (paraphrasing)

The questions from JR seemed so different in context and tone. We all commented that DU would be volatile after NC’s questions so JR should approach with caution - is it feasible that she knew and used this to get an advantage for one client over another? Could JR have used her questioning to get a positive result for Fife and throw DU under the bus?

What happens in these cases with multiple respondents where the barrister is stuck in an untenable position? Is it basically ‘sucks to be you JR’ or can she do anything about it?

(In case my utter bewilderment is not clear, IANAL)

Oh thank goodness. This is giving me some comfort that the view of the "typical person" doesn't align with DU and his magical unicorn words

Compared to other posts on Reddit, that thread has a refreshing number of pro-reality comments. The downvotes on the feelings > reality are quite telling too.
I’m not as disheartened as others, as there are posters clearly putting the issues across and getting upvoted. Still concerning the numbers for whom identity trumps biology.

This feels like the ERCC case all over again on a massive scale (because it is the NHS). One activist man with a whole organisation behind him refusing to acknowledge that when a woman asks for female care or a female chaperone they are not talking about a man’s lady feelings, they are talking about sex. Will this honestly have to play out in every organisation or every hospital trust?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273255-the-bluestocking-all-gerbils-welcome-must-have-own-frou-frou-skirt

New Bluestocking thread!

Note only the gerbils need to wear frou frou skirts!

Absolutely right. You only have to read the comments under newspaper articles to see what people think. I can think of no other issue where there is such consensus. People are really angry about this.

I'd assume they would try to get the best outcome for the person paying them. In this case the NHS and not Dr Upton

That might not be as bad as you think. Near us the new schools are built with heavy duty cubicles and full height partitions/doors for privacy. They sit in a recess off a main corridor with a bank of sinks in front. Two access routes from the corridor and a member of staff can supervise everything. So actually it is much safer and better than the trad loos - and the kids can't vape either

Just looked this up:

If a solicitor identifies a conflict of interest, they are legally obligated to stop acting for one party and this can happen at the start of a case or during its progress. Solictors are supposed to carry out conflict checks to remain impartial before taking on a case to be within ethical practice.

So in theory, JR should constantly remain vigilant for conflicts of interest arising and act accordingly and then advice the clients if they see a problem.

I have to say, if JR is not identifying a problem here, then you have to presume that NHS Fife are fully on board the Good Ship Upton and are happy with the Upton's testimony and JR also doesn't see Upton as damaging Fife's position. Or JR is just flaming incompetent and/or unethical themselves.

Either way, I'm kinda going wtf.

I worked in a school where the single sex toilets had sink areas open to the corridor. Horrendous if you were dealing with a heavy period.

Perimenopause was a nightmare, even with HRT.

This would have terrified me in school. Thank goodness we had single sex spaces. Has anyone asked the girls using the toilets what they think?

That’s pretty much the same as the Evening Standard piece linked to earlier. Same reporter. Different headline.

Full height cubicles are a problem - they are unsafe. They put people at risk of things like fits or conditions where they might collaspe at risk. They can't be seen. If you feel unwell, the typical place to go is the toilet, thus thats why collaspes commonly happen in toliet cubicals. This is why cubicals with gaps were developed in the first place.

So yes, I do think this isn't a positive move forward. Its a regressive one which neglects to examine why toilets were designed in this way to begin with.

Can I ask a potentially stupid question. If DU is claiming that SP left her post during a serious medical emergency, wouldn’t that have been recorded somewhere at the time? Wouldn’t someone else have been called in to take her place, wouldn’t others in the room have had a duty to report her? Who was the senior medic in the room? Are they being called in? What internal investigation took place regarding this incident?

@petesdragfrom there's a good thread to start on FWR called "break it down for me". Also there is another one exposing the creepiest of the stories about these type of men. I can't remember the title of that one, something like "that thing that never happens has happened again" or something like that. Don't go onto the latter one yet; if you do you'll start smoking those fairy liquid fags.

I started with jk Rowling's essay on her website about why she'd objected to being called a 'person who menstruates' then I realised I agreed with it all. Then a writer called Hadley freeman from The Guardian (which I'd always read) left after being there over 20 years and I discovered one of the reasons was because she hadn't been allowed to cover the scandal of the Tavistock hospital and any women's issues relating to the problem with gender ideology.

That then led me to reading Hannah Barnes' excellent book about the Tavistock scandal called Time to Think. I then googled more info about it and discovered the Mumsnet FWR threads. And now here I am! Angrier but definitely more aware of my womanhood, the importance of boundaries and what to teach my young children in future. My oldest DS has severe autism and is very vulnerable so I am also very worried about him being sucked into this as he gets older. It's terrifying. However, there is always light and the women on here have taught me so much about myself and who I am as a person. I can't believe it took me until my 40th year!

@nauticant 1723

For me the highlight was the plain-faced, unashamed repeated insults to educated people, expressed openly and without any measure of shame or embarrassment, submitting nonsense in a convincing manner by claiming to not be a male and to be a biological female as a medical practitioner ......and that there are two forms of women (one of which comprises of men.)
The level of delusion and ideological capture and that he is being supported in what clearly is a mental illness are worrying in equal measure.
He should be paraded and parodied as the figurehead or a dangerous movement which people in increasing numbers are realising the dangers of, and there is no doubt he will be.

Full height cubicles raise so many issues - really not safe (particularly if they open inwards towards the cubicle).