NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #15

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14

It's not outrageous - Datix is not user friendly and there are fiddly rules about different categories of harm, whether something is a reportable incident etc that a junior doctor might not be expected to know.

If DU had never filled out a Datix before (reasonable assumption), it wouldn't be unusual to fill it in with his supervisor explaining which category to fill in and where to write which details about what happened.

As an example, in a previous role I was doing a Datix every month or so because I worked in a service with lots of incidents of patient aggression. But in my current role I've not done one in over 3 years. It's generally not something that comes up that much.

I know it’s petty, but I’m consoling myself by imagining how furious Dr Upton is that Sandie’s fundraiser has far surpassed his own.

It's just so staggeringly sexist.

You can imagine 19th century male academics trying to work out how Marie Curie and Ada Lovelace had acquired their male brains.

But he's not trans, he is a biological female according to him, so how could SP be transphobic.

Come on in, the water's lovely 😁

The first time is scary, the second time is easy, the third time everyone starts agreeing.

If I was KS, I would be getting my own lawyer straight away. The NHS is notorious for closing ranks and pinning the blame for systemic failures on individual clinicians.

Step
Away
From
The
Fags

Honestly. I'm approaching 15 years without, the craving has all but disappeared in all circumstances, and it is one of the best gifts I've ever given to myself.

One thing I'm hoping to be asked is how the incidents were rated on Datix - both by the reporter and investigator.

The criteria for even grading as Minimal Harm is quite high.

I can't see how any of the incidents rate as anything other than No Harm. Except of course to Dr Upton's hurty feels.

Not totally sure, but I think what happened is that the Datix notification/summary that would have been reviewed by management was included in the bundle, but the original Datix form as completed by DU and KS was not. Oops.

That would also explain why DU wasn't familiar with the format - because he sees the user entry form, not the management summary.

I'm a bit confused, is KS appearing in July or will it be this month? I'm not sure if NC was just saying 'give us the docs or else' - or if they really will move to July?

July for KS.

I've just seen this article. Apparently, some complaints have been made about Upton's failure to understand biology.

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/trans-dr-beth-uptons-biologically-34659416

For me it is not so much that he was obviously biased as much as he didn't employ firm boundaries or discipline and was inconsistent in his approach throughout. His own time-keeping was also poor.

in that case, she'll go on sick leave around that time I betcha

I wondered whether the follow up will come when KS is being asked about it. Was it DU or KS on the datix submission? We would understand why DU would want to fill out the form and it was their experience. But why would KS put her name down? Unless she was asked - why?

They might explore that more. I would be asking about how much pressure KS was under to put her name down (if it is) because once her name is on the datix then it is like 3rd party endorsement. It isn't just DU against SP, its DU + KS senior colleague against SP... and then presumably the rest all fell into line after that. Can't wait to hear her evidence

Or australia

One of my favourite examples (albeit in animation):

Thanks!

Great quote from off there - nails it!

[–]Professional-Ear7998 66 points 6 hours ago
Nah this is wild. When a patient says I don't want to have a speculum performed by a male doctor for religious reasons you don't get to define what a man/woman/male/female is to them.
You can believe what you want about what you are and they are free to do the same.
If you think that telling the patient "the truth" will change their mind, you don't have consent.

Honestly, in what scenario where a woman might request a female doctor would they be happy with a transwoman doctor.

I can't think of a single scenario.

Unless they were too scared to say no or cause a confrontation. Terrifying.

And thinks a woman not wanting to change in front of him is an urgent priority but putting a patient at risk isn't. 🫨

The marvelous Massie in excoriating form.

Sturgeon has left Scotland a place where mere words mean nothing

www.thetimes.com/article/b73c5e6f-639b-4cb3-bb50-6e9e47ac68d7?shareToken=ee6a25406dab129e58e89de23a5c4318

If she's still suspended it's going to be quite a challenge to return to work after such a long time out.

I really, really hope that not many of the people posting on that Reddit thread are not actually doctors. My confidence in the NHS just dropped several thousand miles.

Does this dickhead use an identifiable name? Given this would be in breech of social media use and bringing the profession into disrepute under NHS policy / GMC policy....

Unfortunately not, Red.

It’s concerning the volume in support of Dr Upton and seemingly thinking they have access to patients by stealth. The number of apparent Drs on there agreeing is worrying.

If I ask for a female Dr then I want a female Dr. I would not expect to have a man address me to so that I may see if he passes as a woman.