NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

NC: But if you say 'ciswoman' and 'transwoman' that's implying 2 kinds of woman. DU yes bcs there are NC: So you wd be forcing people to say this is a CR for only a subset of women.

I'm so sorry for the merailing. I'll stop now. Thanks for the flowers, this has really set me off xx

I'm just so aghast at the money being spent, from MY taxes, on this when quite clearly, NHS Fife are totally in the wrong, their systems are unfit for purpose, and they've allowed nay ENCOURAGED a sociopath to use and abuse staff right in front of their eyes and are STILL denying that they've fucked up.

Upton won't be alone. He will not be alone. There will be others in Fife, and Scotland, just like him, maybe not in the same costume, but they're right there, in plain sight. Somebody can see them, and that somebody allows them to cause untold harm until one lone voice says "enough".

David and Goliath indeed.

Or rather, Diana and Goliath. It's pretty obvious that the men just don't care.

you got confused with her Mum, Ickle

I would like NC to ask that of every person after DU

NC: You and legal team have done everything possible to make it impossible for C to express her objections in clear language.

DU: She has been able to express. The clear terms are 'transwoman' and 'transman'. Those are the clear terms. Needed for clear conversation

Oh yes, because saying you don't want to change with a transwoman wouldn't be transphobic, either, would it! 🙄

NC: Having to use your framing forces complainer to make herself look bigoted. DU: TWAW anyway. And the EA manages to use language that is not pejorative when describing possible exceptions

Not this again!!

NC: You and legal team have done everything possible to make it impossible for C to express her objections in clear language. DU: She has been able to express. The clear terms are 'transwoman' and 'transman'. Those are the clear terms. Needed for clear conversation

NC: You aimed to force the C to use language that means she must accept your belief, instead of expressing her own that 'transwomen' are men.

DU: Protected beliefs are not necessarily not bigoted, and don't mean you can be disrespectful to colleagues

NC: You aimed to force the C to use language that means she must accept your belief, instead of expressing her own that 'transwomen' are men. DU: Protected beliefs are not necessarily not bigoted, and don't mean you can be disrespectful to colleagues

NC: You're determined that she must not express her protected belief

DU: She can express, but in a work context must respect colleagues. Not appropriate.

The clear terms are Woman and man And you are a man

Good god the sheer audacity of the man

About as confusing as all the NebulousSpartacus's floating around😁

Ooer, Upton thinks it's still ok to say someone can't express a core gc belief, because it's bigoted. I believe we've had that argument and won it!

Christ.

You will comply!!

Protected beliefs are bigoted, apparently. I decide.

Fair Play ;) I'll go change. In a CR that is appropriate for my chromosomes.

We have to be able to call men men, or say they are male, at the very least.

NC: How could SP express her belief that TW are men, in a way acceptable to you

DU: She could say 'trans person'

NC: How could SP say you should not be in the CR becuase you are male?

DU: I'm not male. Just bcs a belief is protected, doesn't make it true.

NC is a genius - this is gold!

NC: You're determined that she must not express her protected belief
DU: She can express, but in a work context must respect colleagues. Not appropriate.

Ergo it is not appropriate for you to insist that she undresses in front of you - she has a need which is appropriate to respect also

watch the wheels come off

I think she's making him do the dominance thing again.

What’s so bad about being a man? Why is it perjorative?
I was an officer in the Navy for 20+ years. Went to sea within 5 years of the start of sea-going women. I can not tell you how many times I’ve been called “Sir”. Was it a slur? No.