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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14

1000 replies

nauticant · 12/02/2025 11:30

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although once it was in to the second week it was looking like this would not happen. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently, as a result of a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

OP posts:
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14
ickky · 12/02/2025 14:07

NC: [page ref] this is part of ED i/x with AG. If you look at the answer to Q9. She says she had statement from Beth that if SP with a patient and BU walks in SP walks out. She says this is from you. Must be referring to 'formal complaint'?

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 12/02/2025 14:07

MarieDeGournay · 12/02/2025 14:02

I think this is regrettable, it's a bit playground, my crowdfunder is bigger than your crowdfunder. Why not just stick to donations to the Rheumatology Society? £11,327 currentlySmile

Also, how on earth do we know that the money from either of these crowdfunders is going to the person involved? Could well be just some randoms hoping to make a quick buck.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can even use them as a useful barometer of public opinion either. Judging by the transgenderuk subreddit, most of the people on there are either too young, students, or too mentally ill to work, so won't have a great deal of money to chuck at things like this.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/02/2025 14:07

NC: You are sure those were the only times sent DU: Only ones I could find searching my emails NC: We can assume BMA would not have forwarded it to anyone. Confidential DU: I assume so

Back to evasiveness. He's still hiding something.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 14:07

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 14:05

I get the feeling NC knows of the existence of something that still hasn't been disclosed.

There's something in the BMA discussions, I'm sure of it.

AnneKipankitoo · 12/02/2025 14:07

RethinkingLife · 12/02/2025 14:04

Has anyone verified that this is connected to SP, please?

Did anyone consult as to whether SP would prefer donations to continue to the Society in honour of the memory of her father?

I've no idea who the CF originator (Paula Hill) is nor the (approved?) connection to SP. No detriment if it's well-intentioned if everyone else knows her but I don't.

I am in another group and it has been verified there

WhatIsCorndogs · 12/02/2025 14:08

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 14:03

I now wish I'd made some DrU cross-X bingo cards. Words to include:

nebulous
investigation
bundle
roving
biological
metadata!

So many more but I'll let you use your imaginations :)

Don't forget the sarcastic "wonderful"!

ickky · 12/02/2025 14:08

DU: I couldn't find having sent anything to ED excpet 'hate incident'

NC: She says "given a statement from DU saying that'. Must mean in writing?

DU: Agree, but if you are saying I gave her 'formal complaint' I disagree.

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 14:08

rebmacesrevda · 12/02/2025 13:59

@CocoapuffPuff Please don't apologise for ranting. I'm pretty sure you've come to the right place to do it!

Thank you. I'm so bloody scunnered with NHS Fife and have been for years. This is probably not a good thing to say, but the idiots at the Vic were partly responsible for my Mum's death. She was in for a bad fall and needed a line in. Whoever did it gave her an infection and she died 2 weeks later from sepsis. It was not a pretty way to die. She was screaming, hallucinating and I had to sit here and hold her hand and listen to nurses fucking TUTTING at the noise she was making whilst her skin turned purple and mottled and I knew, I bloody KNEW, that she was dying. They told me she'd be fine, she was on antibiotics, and sent me home. She died 5 hours later.

I know this is totally irrelevant to the current case, and I'm going back over a decade with Mum, but this is not a well managed NHS and the Vic is not a well managed hospital. Parts are amazing. Staff are, by and large, absolutely fantastic and compassionate and knowledgeable and brilliant.

Management need sacking. The whole damn lot of them need to go and people who actually give a shit need brought in, staff morale needs to be regained and they need to stop sociopaths like Upton running rampage around the wreckage they're already dealing with.

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 14:08

Boiledbeetle · 12/02/2025 14:07

Her daughter has commented on Twitter about the fund raiser for Sandie and doesn't seem to have any issue with it.

.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #14
maltravers · 12/02/2025 14:09

ickky · 12/02/2025 12:04

I think that is the first time today JR has interjected, she must be restraining herself.

She is wants to push for an early end to cross ex of DrU, so she needs to rein it in, or NC will blame time taken on the interruptions by JR.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/02/2025 14:09

DU: I couldn't find having sent anything to ED excpet 'hate incident' NC: She says "given a statement from DU saying that'. Must mean in writing? DU: Agree, but if you are saying I gave her 'formal complaint' I disagree.

Quibbling over semantics and obfuscating again.

ickky · 12/02/2025 14:09

NC: She seems to be saying that there's a need to act on this quickly.

DU: Yes

NC: This is late April - before you discussed the 'resus' incident at interview in May.

Datun · 12/02/2025 14:10

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 14:08

Thank you. I'm so bloody scunnered with NHS Fife and have been for years. This is probably not a good thing to say, but the idiots at the Vic were partly responsible for my Mum's death. She was in for a bad fall and needed a line in. Whoever did it gave her an infection and she died 2 weeks later from sepsis. It was not a pretty way to die. She was screaming, hallucinating and I had to sit here and hold her hand and listen to nurses fucking TUTTING at the noise she was making whilst her skin turned purple and mottled and I knew, I bloody KNEW, that she was dying. They told me she'd be fine, she was on antibiotics, and sent me home. She died 5 hours later.

I know this is totally irrelevant to the current case, and I'm going back over a decade with Mum, but this is not a well managed NHS and the Vic is not a well managed hospital. Parts are amazing. Staff are, by and large, absolutely fantastic and compassionate and knowledgeable and brilliant.

Management need sacking. The whole damn lot of them need to go and people who actually give a shit need brought in, staff morale needs to be regained and they need to stop sociopaths like Upton running rampage around the wreckage they're already dealing with.

Christ Cocoa - what a terrible experience.

ickky · 12/02/2025 14:10

NC: If we look at that - you talk of previous incidents and AG says this is first mention - so she has only seen 'hate incdient' at thsi point?

DU: Yes

snickersbarchild · 12/02/2025 14:10

WhatIsCorndogs · 12/02/2025 14:08

Don't forget the sarcastic "wonderful"!

And 'roving public enquiry' (from JR)

Greyskybluesky · 12/02/2025 14:10

God @CocoapuffPuff I'm so, so sorry to hear what you and your mum went through

Mountaingoat23 · 12/02/2025 14:10

Justme56 · 12/02/2025 14:01

https://x.com/cadenzasmith/status/1889647134460264871?s=46&t=ZX_bLozRqm8etdGICMcAvA

This is what was recorded by Fife NHS. I struggle to understand if this was recorded as a hate ‘crime’ incident, how they felt it could be dealt with internally. Accusations of crime are serious and should be dealt with by the proper authorities.

those minutes are publicly available. So anyone could have seen it and known SP was alleged to have commited a hate crime, months before she was told why she was suspended.

MarieDeGournay · 12/02/2025 14:11

CocoapuffPuff - making space in this fast-moving thread to send Flowers, what a heartbreaking experience.

ickky · 12/02/2025 14:11

NC: But ED i/x meeting does seem to mention seeing it. So your statement to JR about what sent to board when is incorrect?

DU: no she says she has seen A statement, not actually 'hate incident'. I searched my emails. Only sent HI to BMA and AW.

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/02/2025 14:12

NC: She seems to be saying that there's a need to act on this quickly. DU: Yes NC: This is late April - before you discussed the 'resus' incident at interview in May.

So urgent action was deemd necessary even without mention/consideration of the alleged clinical negligence incident.

I reckon the BMA discussions are at the crux of a lot of this.

KnottyAuty · 12/02/2025 14:12

It's all About the Metadata!
#narrativecrumbling

I'll take that T-shirt in a size 12 please

lifeturnsonadime · 12/02/2025 14:12

@CocoapuffPuff Flowers to you, that's horrific, your poor mum xx

JazzyContemporaneousNotes · 12/02/2025 14:13

CocoapuffPuff · 12/02/2025 14:08

Thank you. I'm so bloody scunnered with NHS Fife and have been for years. This is probably not a good thing to say, but the idiots at the Vic were partly responsible for my Mum's death. She was in for a bad fall and needed a line in. Whoever did it gave her an infection and she died 2 weeks later from sepsis. It was not a pretty way to die. She was screaming, hallucinating and I had to sit here and hold her hand and listen to nurses fucking TUTTING at the noise she was making whilst her skin turned purple and mottled and I knew, I bloody KNEW, that she was dying. They told me she'd be fine, she was on antibiotics, and sent me home. She died 5 hours later.

I know this is totally irrelevant to the current case, and I'm going back over a decade with Mum, but this is not a well managed NHS and the Vic is not a well managed hospital. Parts are amazing. Staff are, by and large, absolutely fantastic and compassionate and knowledgeable and brilliant.

Management need sacking. The whole damn lot of them need to go and people who actually give a shit need brought in, staff morale needs to be regained and they need to stop sociopaths like Upton running rampage around the wreckage they're already dealing with.

I'm so sorry this happened.

Cismyfatarse · 12/02/2025 14:13

Metadata? Anyone summarise what that means in this context. I have looked up metadata but still not clear.

ickky · 12/02/2025 14:13

NC: [reads] does this not imply that you are thinking here that AG has seen 'formal complaint'

DU: Disagree [I think, makes reference to another doc had written called 'oral complaint]

NC: A few Qs about why there may not have been more complaints about your use of CR. SP has said others were also unhappy, you said to JR you were not aware of any.

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