NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #12

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11

@Harassedevictee
The judgement was that legally TW without a GRC remain male/men. TW with a GRC are legally male/men.

Am I reading that right TW with or without a GRC are legally male / men and should never enter a female / womans space?

On trans reddit anyway they seem very upset about the fact that everyone's being so mean about poor DU, the papers and BBC are biased, and how disgusting it is that DU is not referred to as 'she'.

You know, the usual incisive and sharp-witted commentary.

@nauticant
Thanks so much for starting and running to keep up with these threads. I'd be none the wiser if it weren't for your efforts. If you were to notch your proverbial bedpost for those you've "peaked" then you'd be sleeping on a pile of sawdust tonight?!

I'm rather glad our justice system doesn't resemble that which is found in the US.

Yes, huge thanks @nauticant .

@Gobbolinothewitchscat - thank you for the excellent summary you posted at 12:42 today.

Agree most on TRA Reddit don't appear to be watching live as they're a bit clueless about the case. I suspect they might not want to be invalidated.

dammit!

Vic Valentine and the Scottish Trans Alliance (STA).
Mumsnetters may be interested in knowing STA campaign for the total end to all SS spaces, privacy and services for women, including when undressed and vulnerable (ie against women's human rights). So at least we all know where Vic's evidence may go!

womansplaceuk.org/2018/06/25/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

Maybe one person has taken one for the team and is relaying to everyone else what a cesspit of transphobia the cross-examination has been and far too unsafe for them all to be exposed to.

JR was emphatic in her interruptions of DC last week that there was no first investigation.
It's all coming undone today.

Yes, this is the problem. You can't even have a conversation about disagreeing because of the linguistic gymnastics, as was made very clear earlier when NC was trying to get some agreed definitions. Anyone who tries to say there is any meaningful difference between Dr U and any other woman will just get tied up in linguistic knots. It is beyond ridiculous and shows that either Dr U is incredibly hard of thinking or totally uninterested in reality. Or both.

Only if you if put how many times your pin didn't work and what your favourite 10 snacks are!!!! 😂

Here is the Tribunal Tweets sub stack link. It has all the sessions from the beginning of the tribunal, scroll to the bottom for today's tweets.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr

Sorry I made a mistake it should say

TW with a GRC are legally female/women.

Thanks @ickky love you very muchly <slobbery air kiss>

I had got access but backed out as too triggering for me.

I want to keep a cool analytical head and keep mt BP under control

Also easier to eat tunnocks and get other substinance. @nauticant 😃

Is there a difference between "female" and "women" in law as far as trans ideology goes?

Because for me, FEMALE is a biological descriptor.
How else do we refer to someone with XX chromosomes and a female reproductive system if we are not permitted to use that word, or if is ALSO applies to those with XY chromosomes and a male reproductive system?

Do we need a new word?

(obviously not, but even if we did invent one, I'm sure the Upton's of this world would immediately included themselves in the category).

Hmm. If this goes part heard for several weeks/months (which looks inevitable now) and the FWS judgment is handed down in the interim, will that change things?

@CriticalCondition was wondering that too

Thanks again everyone for the commentary.

This trib is the most gripping* so far, I think.

*autocorrect changed it to griping which is equally apt.

@Harassedevictee My understanding is the Equality act confirms all males, including those with a GRC, can be excluded from SS spaces for women. Some men who say they are women ignore social norms/ female human rights and ignore this.

FWS case 1 judgement (in Scotland) confirmed men without a GRC are always treated as men for the Equality Act, but there is an outstanding court judgement (FWS 2) to clarify if men with a GRC should be.
Hopefully a legal person will be along soon to clarify!

Continuation thread, although at the moment unclear what it will be about:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13

Caught up reading this thread, just in time for the next thread!!
Thanks as always for the scribing, commentary, especially from those with knowledge and experience of the legal and medical worlds, and all those providing links.

We don’t need new words what we need is for people to stop changing what words mean. Woman = Adult Human Female.

In legislation female and woman are both used. In the EA2010 it uses woman/women in relation to Pregnancy and Maternity protected characteristic.

Bugger I got the access code this morning and was hoping to have an hour or two to pop on and watch for a bit this morning but that got filled up with a pointless meeting and now I'm finally free it looks like everything has gone to pot.

Yes me too: I was following the case thanks to someone on twitter saying we could, independent of MN, and I wasn't one of the idiots who kept their mics on. So I emailed asking for a new access code which as I understand it is our legal right nowadays, but no joy yet.