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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 10:11

theDudesmummy · 11/02/2025 08:59

I am a doctor. I do not believe for a minute that this ridiculous young man believes most of the garbled nonsense he is saying about sex and male and female. He however arrogant enough to think that it doesn't matter if what he is saying is true or not, it's enough that he is saying it.

I do believe the GMC should become involved. Spouting this anti-science (anti-reality) risible (and far from harmless) guff, while under oath and in a very public forum, is the very definition of bringing the profession into disrepute.

Doctors need public trust. Individual doctors who undermine public trust damage the whole profession.

If this ruling does go against this doctor, then theres in a particularly difficult position now.

Sandie would be found to have not harassed. And this is where the points said that anything she did other than full capitulation was unacceptable and that a patient questioning sex would viewed as 'being aggressive' are deeply problematic.

The court effectively saying the doctor is wrong would put them in a very precarious position now as the court would be saying that the doctor's judgement on this was fundamentally flawed on these points.

Any woman being treated by this doctor therefore could not be satisfied that they would behave in a way that's in their best interests. An admission of an inability to see things from other perspectives coupled with this is also deeply concerning. Doctors need empathy and to be able to see things from different perspectives as an essential skill to do the job properly.

This is before any of the sex is nebulous stuff being incapable with medicine.

I have to say, that I do think this doctor is probably so arrogant that they don't realise the mess they've single handedly created with the details of these comments. These are personal beliefs and comments unforced by anyone including the defendant.

Even if it's found that the case itself does have merit and goes against Sandie, I don't think it's much better either - indeed it has even greater implications. Many of these points still stand, and since they are then effectively legal and against the interests of all women it raises a huge question mark that I don't think can be ignored.

It then damages the entire profession. And leaves ALL doctors and the NHS supporting this distain for the lived experience of women.

It won't wash. Such damage to the profession would ultimately have to be addressed because politics will force it.

I do think this doctor has done substantial harm to their own career - and it's why I think there's now a lose - lose scenario here, which they've slept walked into through their own willful blindness.

The profession will ultimately be forced to distance from these comments in one way or another in explicit terms sooner or later.

Anyone who doesn't realise this, is paying attention and doesn't understand concepts of public interest, public trust and public consent.

Doctors - like the police - can not ignore these concepts.

AlisonDonut · 11/02/2025 10:11

I just can't. He wouldn't disclose to a rape victim that he is a man because he is a woman.

I've had to sign off until KS is on.

Ineedashero · 11/02/2025 10:11

Didn't the judge criticise NCs line of questioning too?
I'm very concerned about this judge's impartiality and whether he really 'gets it' and I see an EAT down the line!

lady69 · 11/02/2025 10:11

There will be no “gotcha” mike drop moment as he is a’kin loon mentalist and will lie about basic facts to obfuscate .

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 10:11

BunfightBetty · 11/02/2025 10:11

Thanks for replying. I've gone in with camera enabled and microphone muted, switched camera off straight away but I still can't see or hear anything - just a black screen and no sound. I'm on safari. Will try chrome and see if that makes a difference.

am using Safari too without problems

myplace · 11/02/2025 10:12

Disingenuous git. Who will he ask to speak to her, then?

Bloody bastard.

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:12

Informed consent, buddy.

oOiluvfriendsOo · 11/02/2025 10:12

socialdilemmawhattodo · 11/02/2025 10:01

The patient care issue is the smoking gun. When was it added, by who and on what grounds? Definitely feels like an afterthought to justify the earlier suspension.

I experienced the lengths NHS apparently have to go to discipline someone. A colleague had multiple complaints over the course of about 8 month from patients, staff and visitors about their standards, putting patients at risk by not following moving and handling properly, their total disregard to any forms of trying to steer them in the right direction and swearing at a patient, to name just a few.
It was a very frustrating time for everyone but 'procedures have to be followed' so this person was allowed to continue working.
It's not easy to get suspended or disciplined in the NHS.

Say the wrong thing to the 'special people ' though..........

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:12

NC - so if a woman comes into A&E with unexplained bleeding, and says she wants' to see a female doc, is it okay for you to be assigned to see her?

BU - depends. Heavy menstrual bleeding? Is it haemorrhage? Is it menstrual bleeding? Gynaecology?

NC - let's suppose it's the latter, not resusc. She wants to see female doc. Does she have entitlement to see an actual woman? Is it okay if you're assigned to take her?

BU - okay to take history, if she doesn't want to talk to me, I'd say 'that's okay', and ask a collg to see her. Wouldnt be okay for me to do so. Consent is extremely imoprtant. My aim as a doc is to alleviate suffering, I don't intend to inflict suffering on patients, that's not my job.

StellaAndCrow · 11/02/2025 10:12

You're imposing suffering on all of us by droning on!

musicalfrog · 11/02/2025 10:12

Wow he's got the fucking cheek to talk about consent! How about extending that to your colleagues Mister?

Szygy · 11/02/2025 10:12

Thanks for the new thread, nauticant. I left it on WFTCHTJ, nipped downstairs fora coffee and came back to find well over 130 posts and Upton transplaining about 'unclear language' again.

'Consent is an extremely important principle' he says. What about Sandie Peggie's consent? Hmmmmmm???

myplace · 11/02/2025 10:12

So a woman is retraumatised by the need to speak up despite having already expressed her preference.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 10:12

Theodore is swerving. Swerve. Swerve. Swerve.

Actual woman. Great NC

Szygy · 11/02/2025 10:13

He just said 'actual woman' 😳🤭😬

mzdemeanour · 11/02/2025 10:13

I want NC to ask if he would ask a colleague to see a female patient who objected to him and asked to see a female doctor, how he would decide which colleague to approach to take over?

StellaAndCrow · 11/02/2025 10:13

YES!! I'm fed up and I want him to go away!

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 11/02/2025 10:13

He is loving this.

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 10:13

I've had a catastrophic haemorrhage twice, both of which put me in A&E.

For the vaginal one I got a female doc no questions asked.

We're still allowed to say no to you, Upton.

Swashbuckled · 11/02/2025 10:13

Does he really not see that he is spinning a web of contradiction?

BunfightBetty · 11/02/2025 10:13

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 10:11

am using Safari too without problems

I've switched to Chrome and it's finally working. Not sure what's up with my Safari.

Thanks for helping.

musicalfrog · 11/02/2025 10:13

@redtoothbrush this is undermining trust in not only the medical profession but the tribunal system also.

NotAGentleReminder · 11/02/2025 10:13

Did he really compare a woman asking for a female doctor with a patient asking not to have a black doctor??

AlexP24 · 11/02/2025 10:13

Dr Upton is gaslighting..NC 'a woman presenting with heavy bleeding and asking for a female doctor....should you remove yourself...' DU: 'you are assuming that the patient doesn't view trans women as real women'

argghhh

EasternStandard · 11/02/2025 10:13

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:12

NC - so if a woman comes into A&E with unexplained bleeding, and says she wants' to see a female doc, is it okay for you to be assigned to see her?

BU - depends. Heavy menstrual bleeding? Is it haemorrhage? Is it menstrual bleeding? Gynaecology?

NC - let's suppose it's the latter, not resusc. She wants to see female doc. Does she have entitlement to see an actual woman? Is it okay if you're assigned to take her?

BU - okay to take history, if she doesn't want to talk to me, I'd say 'that's okay', and ask a collg to see her. Wouldnt be okay for me to do so. Consent is extremely imoprtant. My aim as a doc is to alleviate suffering, I don't intend to inflict suffering on patients, that's not my job.

So he does know he's not female

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