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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 11/02/2025 10:13

He's giving me the creeps, the way he says sore.

lnks · 11/02/2025 10:14

Why TF does his voice sometimes become higher pitch! Is he attempting to perform womanhood?

teawamutu · 11/02/2025 10:14

Soft laydee voice emerging?

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:14

Empathy question

myplace · 11/02/2025 10:14

He’s mimicking empathy and concern, consent and respect.

He’s literally mimicking it. Like an actor. Observed and mimicked.

fanOfBen · 11/02/2025 10:14

cascade31 · 11/02/2025 09:55

did anyone have recording enabled written on their screen? I am using my sons computer and was terrified the computer was recording it, so logged out straight away.

Yes, that's normal, it just means the court is recording.

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:14

NC - so she comes in with bleeding, asks for female doc, assigned to you, it's left to her to say that she doesn't want to see you?

BU - that's the reality of any treatment. And you're discounting that she may see TWAW. That's why we say before we examing - this is the process, these are the stages, if you need to stop at any point, just say something. It's important people are in distress that they can be as comfortable as we can make them. If person considers me female I'll see her, if not, I won't.

NC - dyou u consider yourself empathic?

BU - yes

NC - you think it appropriate your collgs receiving a woman in distress and fear who's specifically asked to see a female doc to be in a room alone iwth you, she realises you're male, maybe slowly, maybe it's harder to spot you're male than I've suggested, but it's okay to put her in that position of having to say 'actually I don't want to speak to you I want tos ee another doctor' - do you not see that's extraordinarily [inaduble]

Signalbox · 11/02/2025 10:14

This evidence is horrifying.

Datun · 11/02/2025 10:15

There's no point in making him understand he's wrong, in my opinion. Let him say what he wants, and say thank you, question answered, and move on.

(to the next damning bit of delusion)

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:15

myplace · 11/02/2025 10:14

He’s mimicking empathy and concern, consent and respect.

He’s literally mimicking it. Like an actor. Observed and mimicked.

Psychopath?

Montygone · 11/02/2025 10:15

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/02/2025 09:20

So how do youn think NC needs to prosecute her case in defence of SP. What does she need to demonstrate, and how can she do it?

Letting him show his unhinged attitude and arrogance is enough

rebmacesrevda · 11/02/2025 10:15

myplace · 11/02/2025 10:14

He’s mimicking empathy and concern, consent and respect.

He’s literally mimicking it. Like an actor. Observed and mimicked.

classic narcissism

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 10:16

DU moving the discussion away from women again

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 10:16

He is putting the responsibility for ensuring same sex care on a patient who is in terrible distress and very frightened.

No. Just no.

ickky · 11/02/2025 10:16

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:14

NC - so she comes in with bleeding, asks for female doc, assigned to you, it's left to her to say that she doesn't want to see you?

BU - that's the reality of any treatment. And you're discounting that she may see TWAW. That's why we say before we examing - this is the process, these are the stages, if you need to stop at any point, just say something. It's important people are in distress that they can be as comfortable as we can make them. If person considers me female I'll see her, if not, I won't.

NC - dyou u consider yourself empathic?

BU - yes

NC - you think it appropriate your collgs receiving a woman in distress and fear who's specifically asked to see a female doc to be in a room alone iwth you, she realises you're male, maybe slowly, maybe it's harder to spot you're male than I've suggested, but it's okay to put her in that position of having to say 'actually I don't want to speak to you I want tos ee another doctor' - do you not see that's extraordinarily [inaduble]

last word was cruel.

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:16

He's telling NC what she's 'really asking'

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 10:16

Theodore has an answer for everything without actually answering the question

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2025 10:16

myplace · 11/02/2025 10:14

He’s mimicking empathy and concern, consent and respect.

He’s literally mimicking it. Like an actor. Observed and mimicked.

This. He's doing what he thinks is a fascsimile. Some people might even be convinced by it, if they had never had much experience of this type of personality.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 10:16

He does a trick that when he's put on the spot by NC, he nitpicks details of her question to show that she doesn't properly understand some small aspect of the context she's asking about.

OP posts:
AlexP24 · 11/02/2025 10:16

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:15

Psychopath?

Yes. Absolutely. It's like he is acting.

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 10:16

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 10:11

Doctors need public trust. Individual doctors who undermine public trust damage the whole profession.

If this ruling does go against this doctor, then theres in a particularly difficult position now.

Sandie would be found to have not harassed. And this is where the points said that anything she did other than full capitulation was unacceptable and that a patient questioning sex would viewed as 'being aggressive' are deeply problematic.

The court effectively saying the doctor is wrong would put them in a very precarious position now as the court would be saying that the doctor's judgement on this was fundamentally flawed on these points.

Any woman being treated by this doctor therefore could not be satisfied that they would behave in a way that's in their best interests. An admission of an inability to see things from other perspectives coupled with this is also deeply concerning. Doctors need empathy and to be able to see things from different perspectives as an essential skill to do the job properly.

This is before any of the sex is nebulous stuff being incapable with medicine.

I have to say, that I do think this doctor is probably so arrogant that they don't realise the mess they've single handedly created with the details of these comments. These are personal beliefs and comments unforced by anyone including the defendant.

Even if it's found that the case itself does have merit and goes against Sandie, I don't think it's much better either - indeed it has even greater implications. Many of these points still stand, and since they are then effectively legal and against the interests of all women it raises a huge question mark that I don't think can be ignored.

It then damages the entire profession. And leaves ALL doctors and the NHS supporting this distain for the lived experience of women.

It won't wash. Such damage to the profession would ultimately have to be addressed because politics will force it.

I do think this doctor has done substantial harm to their own career - and it's why I think there's now a lose - lose scenario here, which they've slept walked into through their own willful blindness.

The profession will ultimately be forced to distance from these comments in one way or another in explicit terms sooner or later.

Anyone who doesn't realise this, is paying attention and doesn't understand concepts of public interest, public trust and public consent.

Doctors - like the police - can not ignore these concepts.

I should stress as part of this, that the doctor and NHS Fife are ALREADY politically in a position at odds with the current Health Secretary.

If the Health Secretary is paying attention (and it's inconceivable he isn't given his support for the Darlington nurses), he will be seeing in real time the damage this single doctor has created to the NHS as a whole.

I don't see it being tenable. And I don't think Streeting will allow it to stand.

Wes Streeting is in direct opposition to Dr Upton on this and it shouldn't be taken lightly.

StellaAndCrow · 11/02/2025 10:16

The point is this patient has ASKED to see a female! He's obfuscating.

She's asked to see a female - do you Dr Upton go to see her!?

Gallstoned · 11/02/2025 10:16

Michael Jackson’s back

Datun · 11/02/2025 10:16

BU - that's the reality of any treatment. And you're discounting that she may see TWAW. That's why we say before we examing - this is the process, these are the stages, if you need to stop at any point, just say something. It's important people are in distress that they can be as comfortable as we can make them. If person considers me female I'll see her, if not, I won't.

I don't believe that. Somebody didn't consider him female, Expressly said she felt intimidated and embarrassed and he still wouldn't get out of the female changing room

lifeturnsonadime · 11/02/2025 10:17

She needs to get onto 98 of victims of SA are biological females excluding transwoman who claim to be biological females.

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