NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

Beautifully put by NC!

Wow, NC really going for it with immersive roleplay.

Big girl pants please 🔥

Immersive role play 🤣🤣

"Immersive Role Play" - brilliant from NC!

"Immersive role play with your female colleagues"

Nice NC, nice

I've watched several of these tribunals now and I don't think I've ever seen a claimant make use of expert scientific/medical evidence to clarify that sex is a clearly defined scientific/medical characteristic; that male and female can be clearly distinguished from one another; and that sex is immutable

Why is that? Is it because it was never necessary before because there has never been a medical witness before asserting that sex is not clear cut?

I ask because it's not clear to me that a tribunal or court can necessarily take judicial notice of what to me - and others here - is an obvious fact when one of the witnesses says it isn't and it isn't challenged.

NB - I don't mean philosphers like Kathleen Stock or other humanaities academics, I mean medical or scientific experts

Is NC going to ask him how SP's perceived rudeness affected the care of his patient?

We're on a break, for those waiting to join

What I cannot help coming back to here, having had quite a few emergency trips to A&E (thanks to a female specific chronic illness) is how, in that workspace, he had the bandwidth to make notes about a nurse not saying thank you when he thought she should.

He should have been focussed on doing his bloody job!

DU: I don't expect her to share a changing room with me if she doesn't want to

The problem with him being cool with Sandie Peggie withdrawing is that he was making notes over it.

I think NC will push this issue at some point, maybe in her final argument - Dr Upton has agreed that the incidents he reported as patient safety issues (not being nice enough to him when passing on info, asking him to do one set of obs) are the MOST SERIOUS incidents.

So do these reach a threshold of patient safety concerns such that immediate suspension was necessary?

man pants

This is brilliant by NC, why is he recording every interaction IF he doesn't think she should have to change with him.

She's doing this so well.

He's lying about one of these things. Both can't be true.

NC - you are involved in a coercive control getting your female collgs to involved in immersive role play to see you as a woman?

BU - no. I'm a woman.

NC - what SP has done by withdrawing is opt out of that role play.
that's why youre so angry.

BU I'm not angry. There is no role play for her to opt out of. Pretty clear from beginning I don't expect her to share CR if she's not cofortable. I've not forced or asked her to do so. No anger towards C other than anger borne of being harassed and experiencing transhpobia but her trauma has informed her opinions, sorry she's experienced that, doesn't make it appropriate to treat me [missed] or disrespect me.

Come on NC- drive it home - you say you're not angry but you've submitted a claim for hate incident. That seems pretty angry. You say it's fine for her not to undress with you but that is the entire basis of your complaint against her.

The problem with him being cool with Sandie Peggie withdrawing is that he was making notes over it.

Precisely.

I'm the same - I hung up for the break & now can't get back in (I'm on the phone line). Im kicking myself for hanging up now!

Oooh yes NC what a woman

Good question

I take this to mean having an expert witness clarifying sex is defined and immutable

Idk why we don't have this

172 in the lobby.

NC dropping truth-bombs

They not frightened of you, they're frightened you'll weaponise the complaints system and get them suspended you absolute bellend.

What respect did you treat Sandie with then?