NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

Hang on, is he saying he made a special note on his phone about something SP did that he acknowledges he doesn't know for certain she actually did?

It takes a certain degree of self-obsession to assume other people find you that interesting.

Wasn't DUs correspondence with BMA part of the missing documents on Friday? Has that all gone away now?

Yes. I think this is what NC was trying to get out in the open. That he wrote and complained about things that aren't actually rooted in factual events.

Ooh, the mic’s been left on in the break…

I think NC has just said that she'll be done with this witness by lunchtime tomorrow

Something I think is going well: SP was extremely consistent in her evidence regarding where she was standing, what she said. DU has not been consistent in spoken testimony about this - whether SP referred to "the situation in prisons" or compared him to a rapist. He has also not been transparent in disclosure - bringing the BMA emails at the last minute. Whereas SP has allowed her husband's entirely irrelevant Facebook posts to be trawled through.

Given there is dispute about exactly what was said in the CR, I would hope that a case can be made that SPs evidence should be given more weight due to her openness and lack of self contradiction.

I agree. Thank you so much Arabella.

Please don't discuss what's been said in the room if the panel aren't sitting.

The mics should be turned off but they haven't been.

Yes, I thought I heard this too.

Can someone tell me what WORIADS means? Can't work it out? Thanks to everyone as well doing a sterling job reporting on here!

Thanks arabella

Worthy of respect in a democratic society

Re the changing thing, I recently shared a room with two women for three weeks. Single room, v small shower adjacent to room, no room to change in shower so all got changed in the room.
Still, none of us saw any of each other's bodies. We changed in the normal woman way of exposing as little as possible. We weren't all wandering around in the nip, getting undressed and then looking for our clothes.
We changed discreetly, exposing as little of our bodies as possible, as most women do!
Actually, come to think of it, we didn't have any pillow fights either - I guess we were letting womanhood down.

That was the point of law at the heart of the Maya Forstater case and relates to the Grainger criteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grainger_plc_v_Nicholson

Im just getting a black screen. I’ve tried on two different devices, what am I doing wrong?

I hadn't quite appreciated the sheer importance of being able to use correct language and how powerful using it in these types of cases.
It would be a very different argument/less impactful if Sandie's team had to refer to this chap as a woman and refer to him as with incorrect pronouns.

I don't know how NC stays so composed because I feel so much anger towards him (had to delete my previous sentence for fear of upsetting MN guidelines (and I'm generally quite a malleable woman)).

Whoops

Just in the break, I'd thought I'd add this about the six words amendment discussions around the Forensic Medical Examiners Services Bill where there was a fair amount of people and politicians demanding that female rape survivors shouldn't be allowed to request a female medical examiner -

https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,six-little-words-for-the-word-gender-substitute-sex

It's what peaked me. It shows how deep the rot in Scottish civic life goes.

And it's what Dr Upton is displaying now. An absolute contempt for the dignity, safety and needs of women.

Have you tried different browsers?

Yes, thanks. I will take a break at some point!

Use Chrome on a laptop/desktop and join as an observer.

Has anyone noticed Jenny Murray is in the chat? Wonder if she'll be writing about this case?

"almost imperceptibly the concept of what it meant to be a woman was being dismantled: starting with words but eventually proceeding to material reality."

archive.ph/DNCot

Whatever the outcome of this tribunal, it's been a massive public show of male entitlement.

try a different browser. I was rejected by chrome but allowed in on safari.

The first attempt at safari didn't work.

so try again. I got in on safari, as guest/observer. With the password.

Some found that going in with video and audio worked- but put your finger over the camper so you can switch it all off without being seen.