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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 10:34

nauticant · 11/02/2025 10:25

These necessary but time-wasting digressions into what words mean and getting a response that the witness is going to have different and possibly unstable definitions reminds me of Freeman on the Land court cases.

Ah well Clive the Freeman is currently doing time in the Caymans for human trafficking.

I'm of the opinion that Freeman of the Land types ultimately end up foul of the law precisely because they think they are above the law and knowingly and willfully ignore the law and then whine about it.

lifeturnsonadime · 11/02/2025 10:34

I think he's had voice feminisation training of some sort. The way his voice lifts at the end of the sentence.

theDudesmummy · 11/02/2025 10:35

Yeah, I saw yesterday that he disputes the mechanism of sexual reproduction. Any random professor of any sort of mammalian biology would surely make a perfect witness here? He is either delusional or lying when he says he believes this (and I am perfectly sure which it its). Either way, he should not be practicing.

Datun · 11/02/2025 10:35

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:33

NC - you want action taken

BU - yes, I hope situation is going to be resolved, improve.

NC - from BU's letter to BMA. 'I'm currently upset and shaken by recent escalation, tho I can see it's been coming for a while, considering formal complaint, concerned about pushback, especially considering political landscape, don't feel safe working as a trans person, next due on shift 28th december'

Like it's all out of his hands! It just happened to happen to him!!

MsPavlichenko · 11/02/2025 10:35

RedToothBrush · 11/02/2025 10:30

It doesn't matter. Streeting is ambitious and influential in the Labour Party. So yes he may look at that aspect to get around the issue of it being devolved.

Plus there's a Scottish election soon. Labour will get in, which means even with devolved matters, Streeting will have greater influence even from Westminster.

It is somewhat untenable to have a position as a party where females working for the NHS or being cared for by the NHS will be treated in a manner so completely at odds with each other.

There would ultimately be a legal case brought on the grounds that equality was not the same in Scotland as it was in England, if we end up with a mess of a situation like that...

There is an election here in Scotland next year. Current polling indicates an SNP victory. I am not an SNP supporter.

musicalfrog · 11/02/2025 10:35

ScreamingBeans · 11/02/2025 10:34

For the first time in my life, I feel sorry for judges.

They have to sit through hours of crazy people talking shit without rolling their eyes, gibbering senselessly or swigging back hip flasks of gin and swearing under their breath, much less out loud.

No wonder they sometimes say mad things. They must driven mad by some witnesses.

Tbf the judge could make it easier on everyone by tightening things up here. As requested by NC

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:36

Please ask him what he means by 'unsafe'?

WFTCHTJ · 11/02/2025 10:36

FannyCann · 11/02/2025 10:26

Grrrr

Thought I'd try to quickly log in during my tea break, yesterday the phone in worked fine. Today it is saying "please enter the number you wish to connect to followed by the £ key."

But there is t a £ key on the phone 📞 key pad 🤷‍♀️

@FannyCann I'm a bit behind, but pound key is american for the # key. Try that if you're not sorted.

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 10:36

How do I keep myself safe as a 6 foot 2 hockey player? Hmm....

Keenovay · 11/02/2025 10:36

Beth's robust, high-handed tone is somewhat giving the lie to the idea that he is a shrinking violet who was intimidated by a nurse.

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:36

NC - you have told KS in your initial report of incident that you don't feel safe using CR when SP is there

BU - yes

NC - you're saying for your own safety you'd llchange somewhere else?

BU -no, my thought is to change somewhere else

NC - intention seem to be expressing that your intention is -

BU - yes, until situation is resolved, how do i keep myself safe?

NC - perfectly possible to do?

BU - yes, other options available

NC - but by 28th comes, nobody has been in touch to reassure?

BU - hadn't heard from KS or Elspeth

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 11/02/2025 10:36

FannyCann · 11/02/2025 10:26

Grrrr

Thought I'd try to quickly log in during my tea break, yesterday the phone in worked fine. Today it is saying "please enter the number you wish to connect to followed by the £ key."

But there is t a £ key on the phone 📞 key pad 🤷‍♀️

The "pound" symbol is a #, which phone keypads should have

ThatsNotMyTeen · 11/02/2025 10:36

Scared and distressed

what an utter wanker

surely the panel who have seen this display on the stand must know that in and of itself is a lie.

BunfightBetty · 11/02/2025 10:37

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/02/2025 10:34

Sociopathy Traits
Lack of empathy for others.
Impulsive behavior.
Attempting to control others with threats or aggression.
Using intelligence, charm, or charisma to manipulate others.
Not learning from mistakes or punishment.
Lying for personal gain.

Ticks every box.

MJHereWeGo · 11/02/2025 10:37

Emailed BMA on Boxing day to say had had no reply to his email to KS early Christmas day!
The ARROGANCE!!!!!!!!!!

DontStopMe · 11/02/2025 10:37

bumbledenbarsk · 11/02/2025 10:36

Please ask him what he means by 'unsafe'?

That's what I'm wondering.

ScreamingBeans · 11/02/2025 10:37

JasmineAllen · 11/02/2025 10:33

I agree. I also have no issue with a male Dr doing an internal exam etc but I would have a huge issue with a trans woman doing one because I would automatically assume they are at best mentally unwell and no one wants to be cared for by a Dr who is mentally unwell.

Exactly. I am OK with a male doctor examining me.

A male doctor who tells me he's a female : absolutely not, keep away from me.

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 11/02/2025 10:37

Bigoted outburst my arse

StellaAndCrow · 11/02/2025 10:37

Whatever the outcome of this tribunal, it's really highlighted the insanity and just incredible unreasonableness of these TRA arguments.

CheekySnake · 11/02/2025 10:37

Upton is saying, isn't he, that if a female patient turns up at A&E, with a vaginal haemorrhage, and asks for a female doc, that he would go to examine her, and if she didn't say no, he would assume she was 'accepting him as female' and go ahead and examine her.

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:37

NC - so nothing had been done to make youy safer, but you went to the women's CR anyway

BU - yes, I'd reflected, slept, determined I wasn't willing to let a bigoted outburst and unpleasantness towards me stop me being who I was. I determined an alternate method of keeping safe, face this hostility head on. Unfortunately I got a fright.

eulittleb831 · 11/02/2025 10:37

6 ft fucking wimp playing the victim card and accusing SP of being bigoted.

BunfightBetty · 11/02/2025 10:37

'Hostility'. What a liar he is.

Swashbuckled · 11/02/2025 10:37

He’s much more nervous when she’s going through the emails etc. they’re in writing, so she has the facts. He tries to swerve from these into his political views, but changes in presentation when presented with his own words in black and white (I think).

bigboykitty · 11/02/2025 10:37

Bigoted outburst. FFS. He's overcooking his goose, I think

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