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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 23:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

OP posts:
HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 11/02/2025 10:27

Exactly!!

Manxexile · 11/02/2025 10:27

AnnaMagnani · 11/02/2025 10:20

Unfortunately @Montygone my feeling is that Dr Upton is making a very good impression.

I have to keep muting it as it's unbearable.

I'm not sure he's making a good impression, but he is standing up to this very well.

I think he's talking absolute rubbish but I also think NC is having difficulty pinning him down.

His TWAW argument is one of the more logically consistnet I've heard

Appalonia · 11/02/2025 10:27

Ha Judge said just answer the question!

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 10:27

J: Just answer the question DU!

PaintDecisions · 11/02/2025 10:27

musicalfrog · 11/02/2025 10:20

One thing for sure, if he is representative of trans male doctor I would rather have a standard male doctor if no females about.

I've never had an issue with actual male doctors (I'm lucky enough not to have had trauma to make this difficult for me), but I would absolutely refuse any intimate related care from any man who thinks he's a woman.

I'd also struggle with any police officer who thinks they are the opposite sex.

It's such a breach of the tenets of honesty and integrity to me.

AlexP24 · 11/02/2025 10:27

See now this is where the Judge should stop DU - because honestly DU is trying everything not to answer the question. It is like he is enjoying it in all honesty. How on earth did his wife cope..

AnotherAngryAcademic · 11/02/2025 10:27

nauticant · 11/02/2025 10:18

What this tells me is that it's vital to get a transcript of his evidence because it needs to be discussed by grown-ups in the government and the medical establishment.

Edited

I agree.

It's possible to request transcripts of some hearings for a (usually large) fee. That depends on the hearing being recorded in the first place. I don't know if this is happening (yet?) for tribunals.

If it is being recorded, we could do some gardening to pay for a transcript.

(IIRC one needs to include the reason access to the transcript is necessary for the application for access to be successful. So we may have to hope that someone with research interest in this area requests it. I don't know if it's enough to want to purchase a transcript to make it available to others - but it may be!)

frenchnoodle · 11/02/2025 10:27

Can't watch today.

I also don't think the judge is impartial, but it's all evidence for an appeal if and when needed.

AMillionMugsNoTeabags · 11/02/2025 10:28

Nc’s fucked this up. What du needs to know is whether Pete is taking medication. Not what his GI is.

lady69 · 11/02/2025 10:28

I’d go to prison for a hate crime to prevent my 85 year old mother seeing a quack like him for a gynae type procedure. This is the hill I die on i imagine I am not alone in my sentiment. He is a man. He can shove his fragrant “we are ladies you know” delusion up his prostate full fundament.

lifeturnsonadime · 11/02/2025 10:28

tiny minority!

So we ignore sex. No thank you , Dr Upton.

Appalonia · 11/02/2025 10:28

He CANNOT answer a question !

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:28

NC - going back to Pete. Pete is biologically male at birth. Analysing his blood test, you know his sex. Are you telling tribunal that you need to know his GI aswell?

BU - would perhaps allow for component for his tests? Is he cis man or trans woman? Would his hormonal medications may change his ref ranges, to more closely align with would be typical for your gender because of hormonal effects. You coudl argue it's not specifically [missed] - if Pete says male but tkaing female hormones could affect

NC - did you misgender Pete?

BU - you told me he was transgender, using preferrred pronouns

NC - we discussed Pete may be TiF looking masc due to T. But is simply a man. What youd' call a cis man. Big and manly. You know as a doc he's male. You're looking at his blood test results. Do you need to know his Gi??

bU - if his GI matches his sex, no.

NC - but you do need t know sex, because ranges will be different for men and women?

BU - as I said, a growing area of research, not much on trans people, what we understand as male and female don't aply to trans people who've been taking hormones, after that period we'd use ref ranges of gender they align with. an emerging area of evidence suggests this is what we should be doing.

Signalbox · 11/02/2025 10:28

I call bullshite

Appalonia · 11/02/2025 10:29

Biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle!!!!!

ILikeDungs · 11/02/2025 10:29

EasternStandard · 11/02/2025 10:24

Yeh I'm just on the thread now

It's distressing to hear him

Me too

AnnaMagnani · 11/02/2025 10:29

Am imagining his wife asking him to empty the dishwasher and just getting 30 minutes of word salad back at her each time.

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:29

NC if you really thought sex was a nebulous dogwhistle, you'd be incompetent to do your job?

BU - no, because I'm a doc I consdier it in a deeper term. I'm required to to do my job.

Greyskybluesky · 11/02/2025 10:29

Appalonia · 11/02/2025 10:29

Biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle!!!!!

I cannot believe I just heard him say that!

lifeturnsonadime · 11/02/2025 10:29

He's worried she's moved on. He's been exposed.

nauticant · 11/02/2025 10:30

NC is right here but she's out of her depth because he can pull the rank of "I'm a doctor and know this stuff". To do this properly she really would need to have an expert giving evidence.

OP posts:
bigboykitty · 11/02/2025 10:30

Sex is a nebulous dog whistle...🙄

I think he's getting a bit carried away now with his sarcasm and condescension

littlbrowndog · 11/02/2025 10:30

But don’t you ask any patient what drugs you are taking.

not their GI

As that doesn’t affect their treatment

PaintDecisions · 11/02/2025 10:30

ArabellaScott · 11/02/2025 10:28

NC - going back to Pete. Pete is biologically male at birth. Analysing his blood test, you know his sex. Are you telling tribunal that you need to know his GI aswell?

BU - would perhaps allow for component for his tests? Is he cis man or trans woman? Would his hormonal medications may change his ref ranges, to more closely align with would be typical for your gender because of hormonal effects. You coudl argue it's not specifically [missed] - if Pete says male but tkaing female hormones could affect

NC - did you misgender Pete?

BU - you told me he was transgender, using preferrred pronouns

NC - we discussed Pete may be TiF looking masc due to T. But is simply a man. What youd' call a cis man. Big and manly. You know as a doc he's male. You're looking at his blood test results. Do you need to know his Gi??

bU - if his GI matches his sex, no.

NC - but you do need t know sex, because ranges will be different for men and women?

BU - as I said, a growing area of research, not much on trans people, what we understand as male and female don't aply to trans people who've been taking hormones, after that period we'd use ref ranges of gender they align with. an emerging area of evidence suggests this is what we should be doing.

Edited

Oh piss off 😂😂😂

The absolute horseshit coming out of his mouth. Thank christ I'm not in that courtroom, I'd be thrown out for heckling.

Appalonia · 11/02/2025 10:30

I don't think NC is landing these points as he's so slippery.

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