NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

I think those on TRSOH (possibly including the judge?) will see that the Poster Princess has said every item on the TRA Bingo card perfectly and wonderfully, and will be delighted with the Poster Princess's exquisite performance of educating the lower beings.

Those of us on TWSOH also see that the Poster Princess has said every item on the TRA Bingo card perfectly and wonderfully.

NC - we're going to waste an awful lot of time - I want to see if we can agree a short glossary 🎯

Putting a stop to his procrastination and prevarication!

One thing for sure, if he is representative of trans male doctor I would rather have a standard male doctor if no females about.

Hopefully the female panel member will help. Prob is so many men have no understanding of why women need single sex spaces, J prob thinks SP is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Unfortunately @Montygone my feeling is that Dr Upton is making a very good impression.

I have to keep muting it as it's unbearable.

Oh dear, the audio's gone a bit dalek for me. I think I'm going to try again later.

Finally some push back from the J

I fear the judge thinks NC is asking the questions just to be Unkind, because he has no idea what it feels like to be vulnerable in a medical setting because of one's sex.

Hmm I’m not sure the judge is pro U necessarily. He may be adopting the “killing with kindness” technique to ensure there’s no room for allegations of judicial bias in the event of an appeal by the Respondents. Or am I being too optimistic

Judge is relatively even handed I think.

Yes. That is very worrying indeed

You may be right that the J is on DU’s side, but bear in mind that judges will bend to look reasonable and minimise the chance of appeal/criticism.

I'm impressed by this line of 'this is the language I will use" from NC.

NC - the list is infinite. When I refer to a woman, I refer to biolgoical women, whatever their GI.

JR - not approproiate NC can insist witness uses language she consideres acceptabel

Judge - she's not doing that. Witness can use whatever terms witness thinks. Her preference was' when I refer to a woman, I mean ...'

NC - grateful. That's right. I won't seek to insist any witnesses use language that claimant would prefer, position we've taken is neutral language from tribunal, but both parties should be free to use language they prefer

I think NC needs to emphasise this point

She's listing all the ridiculous genders? That's good

DU: Alternative definitions of what men and women are!!!

The level of objections and interventions from JR is truly unusual. I've never seen anything like this. And the judge is completely failing to exert any control over the witness, which is also really unusual. I have seen judges very sternly tell witnesses to stop being evasive and just answer 'yes' or 'no' it's all about achieving the most efficiency and keeping to the timetable. It's perfectly reasonable to interrupt a witness and tell them to stop making a speech in response to a simple question, otherwise the witness will just take up all the time and make speeches all day. But I also have to say that NC is asking very large, open ended questions with many facets which are perhaps not so helpful because it just gives Dr U a platform.

I've seen increasing amounts of people, whose vulnerable (for many reasons) relation receives personal care in their own home, putting up a sign on the door saying 'female only care' to try to prevent their vulnerable relation having to say 'no, I want a woman for my care please' to a man pretending to be a woman and then suffering the backlash.

Tg for that

This is key. Language is power and men compelling it is to override women

Words mean something!

NC - when I refer to a trans identifying man, I refer to the category you would call transwoman.

BU - I understand you would use your terms, but I'd clarify my definitions. I'm confused.

NC - you understand when I say TiM, I mean Transwoman

BU - yes.

NC - when I refer to sex, I'm talkinga bout biological categories, about bodies, kind of bodies configured to produce large gametes or small, eggs or sperm

BU - I understand, but I dont' agree, so I''ll have to clarify what I mean when I respond

NC - could be hlepufl if we all understand we disagree and dont' have to repeat every time

I'm actually getting sick listening to this. It is a veritable example of narcissm and gaslighting. I'm shaking with rage just listening.

I would hate to be alone with this man.

I actually cannot believe what I am hearing. DU will simply not accept that he is not a woman!!! A Doctor!!!!

@Manxexile no, devolution was not a daft idea at all, but in any case this thread isn't the place for your drive-by.