NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #11

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks although at the start of the second week getting everything done in this time period was looking less certain. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10

This whole thing is distressing for me. The idea that I could be seeing a doctor and not realise at first or not know at all they're really a man, is horrifying. And he doesn't think I should be entitled to refuse to see him UNTIL I HAVE REALISED HE IS MALE. At which point it's harder to tell someone to go, or even worse, they already have examined me.

Have to admit, not sure where this questioning is going or how it is helping the case.

He's putting on the clothes of empathy in the same way as he's put on the clothes of a woman.

BU - need to explain the process. We have cubicles, Id reiterate what I said, any person can experience SA, or perpetrate. Patients present with a varity of presentatiuons, even if presentatiuons are gendered in nature, may not disclose. Any patient who doesn't wish to see a doc beause of trauma would have to disclose it. What you're really asking is that every doc attending says 'hello, my name is, this is my GI, this is my sex assigned at birth, are you comfortable seeing me, would you rather see soeone with a cis identity or a trans identiyt?'

• it's an imperfect world, we do our best -

'I can appreciate it may be upsetting for this person, I'm sorry for that, i. Secondary part of my job is gathering information, to treat people'.

Is he a psychopath? Or just very very very irritating and gaslighting?

He cannot afford to agree otherwise his whole fragile belief system about who he is, nonsensical as it is, crumbles. This is what brainwashing does.

He's putting on the clothes of empathy in the same way as he's put on the clothes of a woman.

Perfectly put.

Absolutely, the body language doesn't match the spoken language or tone. the body language is very dismissive, not caring or empathetic or showing genuine concern for patients.

It's my first day watching and he is creeping me out massively. Reminds me of that Jeffrey Marsh horror.

I’m becoming more concerned this judge has got DU’s back here.
All boys together.

NC - you said it wasn't a given a woman in this situation would be sitting in a room with you?

BU - there's an ENT room we use for gynae patients - describes rooms in A&E and rooms used for gynae rooms

NC - thank you, youv'e answered

JR - witness should finish her question

Judge - you can ask me to interrupt

NC - in taht case, please do so

The judge isn't impressing me.

But health is devolved, so Streeting can't help with NHS Scotland. That will take something like clarification of the Equality Act (reserved to Westminster).

FWIW when I did have this type of haemorrhage, I was throwing up, gushing blood, extremely dizzy, sweating, and barely conscious for some of it.

The right to same sex care has to be assumed at that point. Not decided with some cosy chat with Upton.

What this tells me is that it's vital to get a transcript of his evidence because it needs to be discussed by grown-ups in the government and the medical establishment.

Yes... why is there only one judge?

When I refer to a women I refer to the biological women

He is putting the responsibility for ensuring same sex care on a patient who is in terrible distress and very frightened.

Just like ERCC. Bastards.

Clever NC. She just got DrU to say that a patient would need to ask specifically to see a female Dr not him. And that they shouldn't have to reveal any sexual trauma to make that request. Exactly the same interaction as he's having with Peggie.
Except Dr U said yesterday that he'd perceived any such conversation with SP or a patient as hostile/aggressive or something of that order.

Just wondering. I follow by tribunal tweets. Do those of you watching Upton live think he’s making a bad impression on the court? You can’t always tell from written comment. Witness demeanour is very important.

BU - no room is gynae specific that I can recollect

NC - if you repeatedly claim you don't understand my qus we'll waste ore time. When I refer to a woman, I mean a biological category, mostly composed of what you'd call 'cis women', but also includes biolgoical female people, what you might called AFAB, who say that they are men, or nonbinary, or agender, or demiboy

NC laying out a glossary because DU keeps interrupting and being a general know it all psychopath who pretends not to know what a woman is.

He cannot afford to agree otherwise his whole fragile belief system about who he is, nonsensical as it is, crumbles.

And it likewise appears he will not respect patients' or colleagues' views, wishes or needs if they ever would impinge on his beliefs. All bolstering the harassment case.

He reminds me of the 'Patricia' character from the film Split with James Mcavoy, where his character has many split personalities.

I don't think Wes Streeting has any repsonsibility for NHS Scotland. Health is deveolved.

(Devolution was a daft idea, wasn't it?)

'Demi boy'