NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

If you would like to show appreciation to the Peggie family, have a look at this page, set up in memory of Sandie Peggie's dad: https://alexander-herschell-bell.muchloved.com/

In honour of thread 7 here’s some homework I thought I better do before Tribunal Week 2 now that they have stopped discussing feelings and are getting on to actual useful legal stuff.

Hopefully I have got this summary right - this is the basis of the legal claim by Sandie Pegg (SP) to the Employment Tribunal:

SP (claimant) is the one who has brought the case to the Employment Tribunal (ET) – naming NHS Fife as Respondent 1 (R1) and Dr Upton as Respondent 2 (R2).

She claims against Dr U personally

• Harassment under EA for being a biological male in the female only CR
• Whistleblowing – her challenge to Dr U in the CR was a “protected disclosure” that led to “detriments” – Dr U punishing her via formal complaints of bullying and harassment etc.

She claims against NHS Fife:

• Harassment under the EA regarding “protected beliefs” – citing a list of 12 timeline events:
• The 3 encounters with Dr U in the CR between Aug & Dec 2023
• Being put on special leave from 30/12/23
• Being suspended on 4/1/24
• Beginning a disciplinary investigation based on Dr U’s complaint
• Continuing SP’s suspension on 2/2/24
• Sought to persuade SP to return to work not at Vic Hospital 7/3/24
• Refused to guarantee SP access to a female only CR 7/3/24
• Extending SP’s suspension pending agreement on shifts 7/3/24
• Requiring SP return to work on day shifts in order to be supervised (due to Dr U’s allegations on concern about patient care) 7/3/24
• Informing SP of an allegation and investigation about patient care 28/3/24
• Failing to progress the disciplinary investigation promptly
• Prohibiting SP from discussing these legal matters/issues at work.
• Harassment under EA as in 2a for letting Dr U use the female CR and permitting other staff to use a CR that aligns with their gender identity
• Victimisation (which I think is the indirect harassment bit?) similar to 3a but with 3 additional “detriments” including being informed of alleged bullying and unwanted behaviours to a colleague, as well as being asked to work day shifts in place of nights.
• Whistleblowing complaint with similar detriments as the victimisation claim in 3c

The NHS/Dr U team have responded to accept that the events listed in the claim happened but the don’t accept the claims of harassment and say that they only allow staff to use CRs based on their gender identity on a case-by-case basis (ie my words: not just any old Tom Dick or Harry can march into the ladies)

The NHS/Dr U allege it was SP who behaved inappropriately and that what she said was not a “protected disclosure” or a “protected act” so the subsequent events were not “detriments” to her (again my words – under the law she wouldn’t qualify for protection against victimisation or whistleblowing)

The NHS/Dr U confirmed that they would not rely on the “all reasonable steps” defence under the EA regarding Dr U’s conduct – saying this claim is vexatious and should not be pursued.

(Sorry the MN text editor has removed my original numbering so there will be some odd references which you can hopefully infer)

Place mark - thanks 🙏

Did anyone note any coverage in the press yesterday, like they did after the first day? Can't say I've seen any myself. I guess the BBC couldn't easily distort the reality of yesterday's proceedings or present an alternative narrative.

Thanks, Knotty, for that extremely helpful explanation of the case.

Shortshrift - this is the Times report, behind a paywall, unfortunately:

www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/health-board-withheld-documents-in-trans-doctor-tribunal-5zcvvxjrv

https://archive.ph/xN3O6

Just placemaking - wow that last thread filled up fast.

I hope I can check in throughout the day on Monday - weird question, are the proceedings recorded anywhere? I'd love to see DU being grilled by NC but fear I will miss it (damn you work!)

I am not sure she will succeed with the harassment against Upton for being in the CR. He had permission to be there.

i do think she may succeed elsewhere with Upton. It’s clear he has targeted her with his notes and then he’s been a really stupid boy if he threw in claims about patient care at a later date. That does seem like bullying and harassment.

if the nhs provide male access to female changing rooms on a case by case basis how the hell was he allowed access? He is very early stages transition and doesn’t have a GRC.

I think the NhS Fife is up the creek without a paddle. They have clearly allowed him to manipulate the situation and the investigation sounds like a witch-hunt and extremely unprofessional.

i do suspect they have been worried about him litigating which is why they have been so eager to let him dictate everything.

Monday will be extremely interesting. Not good when I have a busy day at work!

Good grief, did that thread fill up already Thank you to everyone commenting here, I appreciate your time and effort to keep others informed

There's no publicly available video recording HornyHornersPinkyWinky and it's strictly forbidden for an observer to make one. The only ways for the public to watch are to apply to the Edinburgh Employment Tribunal to watch the livestream or to attend in person.

I know we're supposed to finish the other thread first, but who can resist a shiny brand new thread.

Yes! Totally placemarking. What you going to do about it??

Laughs maniacally.

Finding my spot and getting comfy. Snacks to hand.

Placemarking - with a reminder that Sarah Holman and Faye Russell-Caldicott are involved in cases about single sex facilities in England and gardens can be found in the usual place.

I do wonder how they decide on a ‘case by case’ basis. Surely this in itself is discriminatory as I can only think this is subjective. Surely they are limited on what personal/medical questions they can ask? I also remember Peter Daly’s comments as below:

Placemarking too!

Dr U forced their hand though didn't he? I thought he just started using them from the offset, as he's a lady, then a few weeks later mentioned it almost on passing to someone else higher up the food chain, like it was a done deal that he uses the women's facilities. I imagine if caught off guard a be kind type would find themselves suddenly going "no problem" before they'd even thought about checking policy and law.

I forgot that pics aren’t allowed but what PD said was that, once you allow one male into a woman’s SSS it is no longer an SSS and so you lose all permission to exclude any male.

@madcats The system they're talking about is Datix. It's a web based system that's used extensively throughout the NHS for reporting adverse events. A good explanation is here https://www.med.scot.nhs.uk/trainee-doctors/learning-from-datixes/what-happens-when-i-submit-a-datix

What's interesting to me is that I would have considered the kind of complaint Dr Upton had as something that you should raise through HR, not through Datix. It's certainly going to be interesting if the patient safety concerns were not reported on Datix as those are what it should be used for.

Just a note that currently the legal team is awaiting the production of a significant amount of documentation that shows the email trails regarding the investigation, and an IT search of specific terms regarding emails sent out to staff regarding the suspension.

placemarking

Thanks, naughty and Knotty. And anyone else whose name sounds like 'notty'.

Just checking in, thanks for the new thread nauticant.

Thanks for these threads

You’re spot on there.

This below is the entire triage incident that DrU reported Sandie for, in his own words. I mean, WTF? To me, this strongly suggests that he is much more focused on his own feelings than on patient care. But it's Sandie that gets reported. Lots of us on this thread are health professionals - I'd be very surprised if an incident like this would still be in our minds by the end of the day.
(but maybe that's why he immediately made notes about it - don't want to forget any potential microagressions! :) )

DU - at the time she was working as triage nurse.
JR - what does that involve?
DU - first point of contact for walk ins. Role is a brief assessment to determine how unwell someone is and what part of dept they should see. Directing to care needed
JR - how did the patient present?
DU - young child came with parents, was triaged but then left with parents. Notes put into tray for review. The notes were there but parents left before they were seen by Dr.
JR - age of patient?
DU - under 10, can't be certain.
JR what category
of triage?
DU - don't know
JR what was your interaction with the child.
DU - called them to the room, didn;t come. You make a judgement about potential consequences if they have left. Call again if they don't come immediately. Generally careful for children. You would try and
DU - reach parent on phone to try and discuss to call them back in, or say happy at home, but if this happens come back.
DU - so that's what happened here.
JR - then what?
DU - I wanted to ask C about the patient, looking for more info to make a good assessment. Went to find her
DU - to see if she had any concerns.
JR - did you find her?
DU - no.
JR what did you do.
DU - I asked Rhianna if she could find her. Then I wrote up my notes and Rhianna left to find C.
JR - then?
DU - R returned with C. I said hello. Got no acknowledgement of my hello from C.
JR - what did you say and to who.
DU - I said hi and waved to C. She answered Rhianna, didn't look at me but said no concerns.
JR - where was C looking?
DU - at R.
JR - how far were you?
DU - half a metre. I said thank you and there was no acknowledgement.
JR - then?
DU - she left the area
JR - ref doc, is this summary fair?
DU - yes
JR - when did you write it
DU - eve of 19th I should think
JR - refs other notes DU made
DU - I try to write them as soon as possile to reflect feelings of the time
JR - why did you make notes about interactions
DU - I wanted a record of the incidents, it was odd and I was concious that those who are against the existence of trans people and I am vulnerable as a trans person to that. I wanted to be able to say this is what happened, this is what's gone on so that there would be accurate understanding.