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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/02/2025 15:40

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

OP posts:
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37
PepeParapluie · 08/02/2025 18:52

QuetzalTerfLus · 08/02/2025 18:22

One of the comments that jumped out at me from DrU’s replies to JR questions re SP confronting him in the CR is this:

”Someone casting aspersions on my people.” - evidently he sees transwomen as his people, but not actual women like SP.

Then there’s the further question of what we are supposed to call men-who-identify-as-women-but-have-committed-a-crime-that-DrU-doesn’t-like. If Isla Bryson and other trans identified men aren’t actually transwomen then… doesn’t that make DrU the transphobe?

There was actually quite an amusing exchange about this on Reddit this week. The transgressor has deleted their blasphemy now, but essentially someone questioned why TERFs always bring up Bryson, who isn’t a real trans woman, just transitioned for an easier time in prison, but they were then told off for gate keeping because if Bryson says Bryson is a woman, then she is, and anyone who says otherwise is transphobic. So I think the answer to your question is yes, according to the purist TRAs.

FallenSloppyDead · 08/02/2025 18:55

guinnessguzzler · 08/02/2025 18:42

@oldwomanwhoruns The problem is you're expecting NHS Fife to apply logic and follow the law. It's becoming fairly apparent they have neither the ability or inclination to do either of those things 😂

But seriously, I think the real problem there is that the definition of woman has been deliberately muddled over recent years, with boundaries consistently eroded, such that even though there is actually a good level of clarity, lots of people aren't aware of that. Combine that with people who either don't have the time or desire to check, or ability to recognise it as something worth checking, and we end up here. Plus, as someone else said upthread, I'd guess Dr U gives off litigious vibes and some, not very bright strategic, people will see that as best dealt with by rolling over rather than best dealt with by being 100% sure of the law and doing and saying as little as possible until you are positive you can defend everything you've done in a tribunal. I seriously struggle to understand what their HR were doing on this, the potential for this has been rumbling for at least five years, a decade or more for those with their ear to the ground, so how a huge employer with a requirement to provide changing rooms across multiple sites didn't have a watertight plan of action ready I don't know. It's not like they are a tiny organisation who might reasonably assume that they were statistically unlikely to encounter this issue. They should have been ready.

It has a lethal mix of mendacity and incompetence written all over it. It's giving me lots of Post Office vibes

Waitingfordoggo · 08/02/2025 18:55

serendipitea · 08/02/2025 18:48

I simply do not believe any of that has happened. You can see in photos of him that he's a large, well built, very masculine looking man. No-one is mistaking him for a woman.

I knew a guy who started wearing skirts and got hassled in the neighbourhood he lived. But it wasn't because he was mistaken for a woman (`misogyny') but because he looked odd. I guess any guy who wears girly clothes or puts frilly hair clips or whatever will unfortunately get titters from yobs - but it is a stretch as DU has done to equate this to everyday misogyny!

Yes, I would say that's a form of homophobia- definitely not misogyny. There is a certain type of man (the Tate-followers probably) who really can't cope with men or women experimenting with masculine/feminine styles- not talking about trans people here, but just gender non-conforming people, who really have existed forever, and who most GC feminists wholeheartedly support!

maltravers · 08/02/2025 18:56

Totallymessed · 08/02/2025 18:06

DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny
DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

I simply do not believe any of that has happened. You can see in photos of him that he's a large, well built, very masculine looking man. No-one is mistaking him for a woman.

I believe that trans is a category of porn now - you know what some men are like 🙄. Presumably some may have been interested in him as a TW.

Swashbuckled · 08/02/2025 18:56

Agreed. I can’t imagine the catcalling was sincere.

Touching his knee? I’m not convinced about that either. Those sorts of men doesn’t do knee touching anymore (not in my experience); that feels more like the 70s - 80s. Nowadays they just press against you (at a bar) or man spread (on a train) and pretend there’s no intention behind it.

Knee touching was relational; the boss to the young pretty typist, and was done because he was inviting more. Can’t imagine that happening in this case…

(Can feel a paper coming on the evolution of predatory male touch 🤣)

ConstructionTime · 08/02/2025 18:58

yourhairiswinterfire · 08/02/2025 18:28

A nurse's 30 year career in jeopardy because of this.

I can't wait to see the emails/communications re how this was investigated and why it warranted suspension and then supervision, assuming we don't find out on Monday that the dog has eaten them.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the type of accusations the nurse is facing, about not smiling enough, waiting outside the room until it’s free, not speaking in the right tone…
They all turn towards someone being desperately offended because someone else (a woman) is not being deferential enough.

The accusations also remind of other things people are upset about:
“The bus driver did not say good morning” – did the driver drive safely and did you get from A to B in time? Then you got what you paid for. Session done.

“The cashier didn’t smile at me all the time” – did the cashier ring up your purchases correctly, did the payment go smoothly? Then you have all you need. Any niceness is purely optional.

And on the other hand, we have:
“I was crowded by several men on the tube who tried to grope me” – happens every day, nothing to see here, and what were you wearing? No, we don’t have the money for more trains or reinstation of a conductor. Maybe buy a car?

“Some guys catcalled me on the way to work” – What were you wearing, and anyways, nothing to see here, just deal with it.

“I’m paid differently to my male co-worker, though we have the same qualifications and comparable experience” – after all, the experience is not comparable, and he’s a better negotiator. We recommend self-assertion courses, but it has nothing to do with our company.

The scene which is set by the first set of examples is very similar to main character syndrome. Everyone needs to be nice to you all the time, greet you enthusiastically, go out of their way for your comfort, always prioritize you in everything, regardless of whether the other person works with you in some context or is a randomer on the street or another citizen or sells you groceries.

The expectation is that everyone is there for you, as if they are all your employees.

But others are not your housekeeper or your butler or personal assistant or mental support person, except for the cases where they actually are.

They also have their jobs and obligations, and if for example companies would not save on staff everywhere, so they are overworked and rushed, they might have a lot more mental energy for friendliness at the end of a long shift, it is not just a personal obligation of someone, but their employer has a responsibility for the work conditions.

As we see all the time record amounts of money given to shareholders and the top 5 people (CEO etc.), this is not about financial strains, just greed. So these attacks on individuals because you imagine they weren’t nice enough are directed at the wrong person at the bottom of the food chain instead of at top management.

And this expectation to be the center of attention is here also used by TRA against women and as they imagine themselves as the most oppressed, that somehow gives them the right to extreme revenge for imaginary slights.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/02/2025 18:59

I hope NC asks him about his experiences of flooding during periods given that the poor soul has gone through everything a woman goes through which allows him to empathise so much.

TWETMIRF · 08/02/2025 19:02

I still can't get over that he waved at her. Who the fuck waves at their colleagues?

teawamutu · 08/02/2025 19:02

Swashbuckled · 08/02/2025 18:56

Agreed. I can’t imagine the catcalling was sincere.

Touching his knee? I’m not convinced about that either. Those sorts of men doesn’t do knee touching anymore (not in my experience); that feels more like the 70s - 80s. Nowadays they just press against you (at a bar) or man spread (on a train) and pretend there’s no intention behind it.

Knee touching was relational; the boss to the young pretty typist, and was done because he was inviting more. Can’t imagine that happening in this case…

(Can feel a paper coming on the evolution of predatory male touch 🤣)

Definite 'and then everyone on the bus clapped' vibes imo.

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 19:04

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/02/2025 18:59

I hope NC asks him about his experiences of flooding during periods given that the poor soul has gone through everything a woman goes through which allows him to empathise so much.

Twitches in wanting to use Jo Bartosch's recent phrase re: contention.
https://thecritic.co.uk/describing-reality-is-not-harassment/

Reflects that it's not my style and might lead to a deletion.

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:08

PepeParapluie · 08/02/2025 18:52

There was actually quite an amusing exchange about this on Reddit this week. The transgressor has deleted their blasphemy now, but essentially someone questioned why TERFs always bring up Bryson, who isn’t a real trans woman, just transitioned for an easier time in prison, but they were then told off for gate keeping because if Bryson says Bryson is a woman, then she is, and anyone who says otherwise is transphobic. So I think the answer to your question is yes, according to the purist TRAs.

I remember being rendered speechless when discussing the Isla Bryson case with my trans-identifying family member and trying to say something about the safety risks to women of men being in women's prisons, and how identifying as a woman doesn't lower the risk of a man with a history of sexual violence etc etc. And she stared at me while banging her fist and zealously proclaiming 'I would defend to the death her right to be in a women's prison.' The power of online brainwashing is strong.

YourWiseBee · 08/02/2025 19:10

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:08

I remember being rendered speechless when discussing the Isla Bryson case with my trans-identifying family member and trying to say something about the safety risks to women of men being in women's prisons, and how identifying as a woman doesn't lower the risk of a man with a history of sexual violence etc etc. And she stared at me while banging her fist and zealously proclaiming 'I would defend to the death her right to be in a women's prison.' The power of online brainwashing is strong.

Edited

Something tells me that she’s very much alive whilst he’s in a male prison 😂

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:12

YourWiseBee · 08/02/2025 19:10

Something tells me that she’s very much alive whilst he’s in a male prison 😂

Yes, and thank goodness!

Harassedevictee · 08/02/2025 19:12

I do hope NC has received all the disclosure documents in good time and is now enjoying a well deserved 🍷

PepeParapluie · 08/02/2025 19:15

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:08

I remember being rendered speechless when discussing the Isla Bryson case with my trans-identifying family member and trying to say something about the safety risks to women of men being in women's prisons, and how identifying as a woman doesn't lower the risk of a man with a history of sexual violence etc etc. And she stared at me while banging her fist and zealously proclaiming 'I would defend to the death her right to be in a women's prison.' The power of online brainwashing is strong.

Edited

🤯 it certainly is.

I remember a similar conversation with a friend who was in no way steeped in online TRA discourse who was adamant no one would possibly go through the turmoil of being trans just to go to women’s prison. I was pretty speechless at her certainty on that, given the lengths plenty of men will go to for plenty of nefarious and/ or self-serving reasons…

teawamutu · 08/02/2025 19:16

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:08

I remember being rendered speechless when discussing the Isla Bryson case with my trans-identifying family member and trying to say something about the safety risks to women of men being in women's prisons, and how identifying as a woman doesn't lower the risk of a man with a history of sexual violence etc etc. And she stared at me while banging her fist and zealously proclaiming 'I would defend to the death her right to be in a women's prison.' The power of online brainwashing is strong.

Edited

Well, actually she is defending the right of rapists in women's prisons to the rapes/deaths of other women.

Not the moral high ground she thinks it is. Pretty contemptible, really.

NotAGentleReminder · 08/02/2025 19:18

teawamutu · 08/02/2025 19:16

Well, actually she is defending the right of rapists in women's prisons to the rapes/deaths of other women.

Not the moral high ground she thinks it is. Pretty contemptible, really.

I know, I was really upset. There was absolutely no reasoning with the insanity. If anything, attempting to do so fuelled it.

Boiledbeetle · 08/02/2025 19:18

RethinkingLife · 08/02/2025 19:04

Twitches in wanting to use Jo Bartosch's recent phrase re: contention.
https://thecritic.co.uk/describing-reality-is-not-harassment/

Reflects that it's not my style and might lead to a deletion.

Edited

Someone's got it as a username on the last thread .😍

Tallisker · 08/02/2025 19:19

RethinkingLife 🤣🤣

Appalonia · 08/02/2025 19:21

Question: in terms of Dr U's ' transition', is there any evidence of what this actually involved? Surgery, hormones etc? ( not that makes any man a woman, obvs ). Or did he just decide he was a woman in 2022, having lived his whole life as a man...?

Rightsraptor · 08/02/2025 19:24

So it seems that it wasn't patient safety concerns that DU was complaining about but rather doctor sensitivity concerns.

It's about 20 years since I left the NHS & we didn't have Datix then, but just a book of 'Critical Incident' forms and a pen. I was one of the major fillers-in of these forms, so I was told, and had to slide them under the door of the relevant manager's office when she wasn't there. I always wondered what happened to them ...

Datix is an improvement on that and at least they'll be able to trace the complaints filed by DrU. Or will they?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 08/02/2025 19:24

StellaAndCrow · 08/02/2025 17:52

And again, this is the entirety of the terrible aggressive changing room incident which was so threatening that it gave DrU panic attacks and had to go off sick for 2 months:

DU - when I opened the cubicle door I saw just C
JR - then?
DU - went to sink to wash hand.
JR - C initiated conversation.
DU - C was standing at the end of lockers closest to sink
JR - body position.
DU - standing, looked comfortable facing me.
JR - how sere you feeling
DU - when I saw her and not my other colleagues I was anxious. ANy other time I had been in the CR she had left, so when I was alone with her I was anxious. The usual pattern is she knows I'm in CR she leaves. The way she was sat looking gave me the
DU - impression she was waiting for me.
JR - what did she say
DU - this is the women's CR it was inappropriate for me to be there, that she was intimidated and I shouldn't be there. That others felt similarly intimidated and I shouldn't be there
JR - what was the tone?
DU - clear, direct, maintained eye contact at all times, almost rehearsed sounding.
JR - what was her demeanour
DU - calm and ready to say something and she came out with that.
JR - your response?
DU - finished drying my hands. Apologised that
DU - she felt intimidated
J - repeat
DU - I apologised I explained I'm a woman and allowed to use the CR, there are channels she can use and this isn't an appropriate time or place to do it.
JR - the end?
DU - no it continued.
JR - who spoke
DU - she did
DU - she repeated it, that she understood I was undergoing some kind of process....
J - hang on (making notes)
DU - process but as a man I can't be in the CR. I said I'm not a man, this isn't appropriate and she should speak to someone more senior.
J - asks for pause.
DU - she said it wasn't safe for me to be there, asked what my chromosomes were, said it was analagous to the recent case, I assumed Isla Bryson...
JR - hang on please explain exactly the prisons comment
DU - she said it's like the situation in the prisons.
JR -what did you think
DU - I assumed she meant Isla Bryson, that she was comparing me to a sexual predator, there was an argument over men and women's estates
JR - she said you were a man, asked about chromosomes and prisons, how did you feel?
DU - awful, really really upset. I've never been spoken
DU - to like that. It was awful to be compared to someone like that. Someone casting aspersions on my people. I was upset and afraid actually I didn't know what it would mean going forward, would have to raise it but just wanted to extricate myself.
JR - why were you afraid?
DU - away from others, unlikely to be overheard, comparing you to someone who has committed terrible acts and they are confronting you and saying things about your community I was afraid. It was hurtful
JR - when did you write the note?
DU - maybe 25mins
DU - later.
JR - refs note. please read. you describe her cutting you off. describe from just before that.
DU - as in the note, she said others had similar concerns, I said I'd heard none, she said she was the only on who would speak up. Said didn't want to change
DU - in front of men. Bad experience with men. I sympathised and she cut me off saying you don't, if you did you wouldn't be changing in here.
JR - why did you say you understood/sympathised.
DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny
DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience
JR - where were you when this happened?
DU - dried my hands, after first couple of sentences, stepped around C to the in
JR - ref picture, where was claimant?
DU - here she looked at me the whole time.
JR - what wa syour body position
DU - bent to pick up bag
JR - dressed?
DU -
DU - clothed the whole time
JR - you ref'd process of complaint?
DU - yes 3 or 4 times, every time she said something new, I would try and be calm and say I'm sorry you should raise this somewhere else.
JR - what was her response?
DU - carried on with comments, I'm indimidating
DU - shouldn't be here etc. eventually she agreed to raise it higher up and I left.
JR - you wnated the conversation to end why?
DU - it was deeply upsetting to have people say these things, I was upset and distressed.
JR - who ended the conv?
DU - hard to say. C said she would
DU - raise it, I may have said OK, it mutually ended like that.
JR - who left first?
DU - I did
JR - went where?
DU - tried to find consultant on call, overnight on A_E there's a registrar in charge and a consultant on call. If not busy consultant would be resting.
DU - so I knew likely Elspeth would leave a couple of hours after starting shift.
JR - where did you find her?
DU - went round whole dept at least once, asked registrar, found her eventually and asked for a conv.
JR - where did conv happen?
DU - well being room in A+E

So was she "standing", or was she "sat", Dr Upton?

Rightsraptor · 08/02/2025 19:25

I think your last sentence is correct, @Appolonia

Boiledbeetle · 08/02/2025 19:27

Appalonia · 08/02/2025 19:21

Question: in terms of Dr U's ' transition', is there any evidence of what this actually involved? Surgery, hormones etc? ( not that makes any man a woman, obvs ). Or did he just decide he was a woman in 2022, having lived his whole life as a man...?

He shaved his beard off.

Appalonia · 08/02/2025 19:32

It's horrendous that so many women have had to go through this horrendous, stressful, timewasting farce just to prove that reality is real. Meanwhile, in America, Trump ( whatever you may think of him ), is putting an end to all this madness with just a stroke of his pen...!

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