NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

Thanks, I got access on Friday thinking that was going to be cross examination day (and luckily I wasn't working) - I will try and watch a bit on Monday if possible, but if not then I will check out TT.

And again, this is the entirety of the terrible aggressive changing room incident which was so threatening that it gave DrU panic attacks and had to go off sick for 2 months:

DU - when I opened the cubicle door I saw just C
JR - then?
DU - went to sink to wash hand.
JR - C initiated conversation.
DU - C was standing at the end of lockers closest to sink
JR - body position.
DU - standing, looked comfortable facing me.
JR - how sere you feeling
DU - when I saw her and not my other colleagues I was anxious. ANy other time I had been in the CR she had left, so when I was alone with her I was anxious. The usual pattern is she knows I'm in CR she leaves. The way she was sat looking gave me the
DU - impression she was waiting for me.
JR - what did she say
DU - this is the women's CR it was inappropriate for me to be there, that she was intimidated and I shouldn't be there. That others felt similarly intimidated and I shouldn't be there
JR - what was the tone?
DU - clear, direct, maintained eye contact at all times, almost rehearsed sounding.
JR - what was her demeanour
DU - calm and ready to say something and she came out with that.
JR - your response?
DU - finished drying my hands. Apologised that
DU - she felt intimidated
J - repeat
DU - I apologised I explained I'm a woman and allowed to use the CR, there are channels she can use and this isn't an appropriate time or place to do it.
JR - the end?
DU - no it continued.
JR - who spoke
DU - she did
DU - she repeated it, that she understood I was undergoing some kind of process....
J - hang on (making notes)
DU - process but as a man I can't be in the CR. I said I'm not a man, this isn't appropriate and she should speak to someone more senior.
J - asks for pause.
DU - she said it wasn't safe for me to be there, asked what my chromosomes were, said it was analagous to the recent case, I assumed Isla Bryson...
JR - hang on please explain exactly the prisons comment
DU - she said it's like the situation in the prisons.
JR -what did you think
DU - I assumed she meant Isla Bryson, that she was comparing me to a sexual predator, there was an argument over men and women's estates
JR - she said you were a man, asked about chromosomes and prisons, how did you feel?
DU - awful, really really upset. I've never been spoken
DU - to like that. It was awful to be compared to someone like that. Someone casting aspersions on my people. I was upset and afraid actually I didn't know what it would mean going forward, would have to raise it but just wanted to extricate myself.
JR - why were you afraid?
DU - away from others, unlikely to be overheard, comparing you to someone who has committed terrible acts and they are confronting you and saying things about your community I was afraid. It was hurtful
JR - when did you write the note?
DU - maybe 25mins
DU - later.
JR - refs note. please read. you describe her cutting you off. describe from just before that.
DU - as in the note, she said others had similar concerns, I said I'd heard none, she said she was the only on who would speak up. Said didn't want to change
DU - in front of men. Bad experience with men. I sympathised and she cut me off saying you don't, if you did you wouldn't be changing in here.
JR - why did you say you understood/sympathised.
DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny
DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience
JR - where were you when this happened?
DU - dried my hands, after first couple of sentences, stepped around C to the in
JR - ref picture, where was claimant?
DU - here she looked at me the whole time.
JR - what wa syour body position
DU - bent to pick up bag
JR - dressed?
DU -
DU - clothed the whole time
JR - you ref'd process of complaint?
DU - yes 3 or 4 times, every time she said something new, I would try and be calm and say I'm sorry you should raise this somewhere else.
JR - what was her response?
DU - carried on with comments, I'm indimidating
DU - shouldn't be here etc. eventually she agreed to raise it higher up and I left.
JR - you wnated the conversation to end why?
DU - it was deeply upsetting to have people say these things, I was upset and distressed.
JR - who ended the conv?
DU - hard to say. C said she would
DU - raise it, I may have said OK, it mutually ended like that.
JR - who left first?
DU - I did
JR - went where?
DU - tried to find consultant on call, overnight on A_E there's a registrar in charge and a consultant on call. If not busy consultant would be resting.
DU - so I knew likely Elspeth would leave a couple of hours after starting shift.
JR - where did you find her?
DU - went round whole dept at least once, asked registrar, found her eventually and asked for a conv.
JR - where did conv happen?
DU - well being room in A+E

If a woman told me that they and other women found my presence intimidating, I'd leave and reflect, not insist that I had a right to be there. But then I'm a woman.

Reading that makes me so angry - he knows full well what he is doing. What a dickhead!

I said thank you and there was no acknowledgement.

Oh, the humanity.

These threads have been very informative. Thank you to all who are able to use their knowledge to inform us lesser mortals!

Thanks again all you fabulous commentators

DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny
DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

I simply do not believe any of that has happened. You can see in photos of him that he's a large, well built, very masculine looking man. No-one is mistaking him for a woman.

Thanks for the new thread!

These threads are enormously enlightening and fascinating, thank you to all the knowledgeable people who contribute.

I'd probably get a deletion were I to speculate on the part of his imagination that generated that.

@StellaAndCrow: you helpfully reproduce Upton comments (17.47, I think - first one, any way) and he talks of making his complaint on 19th - do we know which month?

I was listening at the time but the sounds was bad - is the 'Missing Patient' his only claim of poor patient care against Sandie? Patients come & go, hospitals aren't prisons ffs, they can't be forced to stay. I'm unclear about what he says she did wrong.

Thanks so much everyone for some great updates and explanations. This is why I love this Board. Every day I learn something, and today's lesson is on Datix.

@Rightsraptor there's Missing Patient and Resus Room.

Resus Room is he tries to assess a patient quickly before the end of his shift. The patient hasn't had obs done.
Sandie arrives to do the obs and sees him in with the patient already.
Sandie asks him to do the obs.

This is apparently a massive patient safety incident as only nurses do obs.

Sorry, back to the Datix ( and I have only been going by TT who usually reference pages in the b-thing that shall not be named).

I have heard no reference to Datix reports for the patient safety; were there any?

Odd

We wait...

Re: JR calling Maya "Forshatter", I hadn't really connected the dots that she actually knew her well, as she'd been in Maya's original EAT and appeal.

Surely she must have heard her name pronounced correctly hundreds of times?

Makes it even more odd that she consistently called her "Forshatter". I wonder what that was all about?

But there is a legal obligation for single sex changing, isn't there? Because getting changed on site is a part of the job?

So (bearing in mind that ianal) I can't see how the Trust could have legally given Upton, ie a man, permission to go into the ladies' changing.

To continually mispronounce the name of someone in that way suggests the intent to needle, undermine, annoy, or provoke them into an unhelpful outburst.

Yes, it's very murky waters.

Once you start allowing men who say they are women but don't have GRCs into a female-only space, such as a changing room, it's possible that any other man could claim they're being discriminated against if they're then not allowed into the female changing room.

One of the comments that jumped out at me from DrU’s replies to JR questions re SP confronting him in the CR is this:

”Someone casting aspersions on my people.” - evidently he sees transwomen as his people, but not actual women like SP.

Then there’s the further question of what we are supposed to call men-who-identify-as-women-but-have-committed-a-crime-that-DrU-doesn’t-like. If Isla Bryson and other trans identified men aren’t actually transwomen then… doesn’t that make DrU the transphobe?

But did Fife ever ask if he had a GRC? Or did they just take his word for it that he was a s.9 woman?

My interpretation was she was trying to rile her. She failed.

Do we know who is funding this for Sandie Peggie? I don't recall any gardening. Is Sex Matters backing this as another important test case like Maya's was?

I think JR was attempting to make SP and MF lose their temper and, in Maya's case, to complain about mis-naming.

Presumably that was the plan and it blew up in her face.

I'm just going by TT and M'net so I didn't catch the tone.

it seems that this also is a sign of understaffing; the nurse cannot physically do both things, but the situation is time-critical.

If there was no other fellow nurse to ask, and an ER patient needs urgent care, isn’t it more safe for the patient if the work is shared amongst two people, even if technically the second person is too senior to do it?

To fix this from happening, the trust needs to employ more nurses.

I think (though someone here may remember better) that this is one of the things that we don't know yet, and that NC has asked for documents to clarify).

And yes, as Anna says above, the only other "patient safety" incident was SP asking DrU if he would do obs on a patient while he was in the cubicle with the patient.