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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7

1000 replies

nauticant · 08/02/2025 15:40

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 January 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse

Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2

Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3

Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4

Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5

Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6

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Thread gallery
37
nauticant · 10/02/2025 09:25

Usually 1 hour for lunch @Swashbuckled.

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JustBitetheKnotsOff · 10/02/2025 09:28

So the ex-male toilet said sth like "Urinals and stalls" and the ex-female toilet said "Stalls".

Of course it bloody would. So the men get 50% extra options and the women get 33% fewer*, with pissed-on seats. Why doesn't anyone take ten seconds to think these things through? Have they never met a human?

  • Ish. Too grumpy to add up.
CheekySnake · 10/02/2025 09:29

I wonder if there will be any discussion about the fact that the NHS had a contradictory changing room policy. They provided separate male and female spaces but had a written policy that said users were free to chose which one they went in. So they were both single sex and unisex at the same time.

Chrysanthemum5 · 10/02/2025 09:33

BezMills · 10/02/2025 09:21

Legend has it that the main library at George Square hasn't got any books on the top floor because the architects hadn't taken into account quite how heavy three floors of books were, and it would be structurally unsafe. I have no idea if that's true but when I was there, in days of yore, the top floor indeed had no books and was closed off.

Would be epic if NC's closing remarks were 'having delivered the book to my learned friend via upper limb projection at best speed, I invite them to file it in the top floor'

The top floor is the collections I believe so all the antique books etc that are not on general display. I may be wrong though!

BountiesAreUnderrated · 10/02/2025 09:34

I've just requested a logon to hopefully watch a bit of today. I'm working and really can't spare time but I do want to hear DU respond to questions. But if I get tied up in meetings then thanks in advance for all the excellent commentary that makes it possible for lurkers like me to follow along. It's so appreciated, I wouldn't have half the understanding of this case without you all.

ickky · 10/02/2025 09:34

Morning everyone. Currently WFTCHTG got in early in case it's crowded. 😁

Can't believe how quickly this has filled up, we're gonna need a bigger thread.

I predict 2 more whole threads by the end of the day.

Greyrockin · 10/02/2025 09:35

Any tips for logging on as an ET observer? I was granted access on Friday afternoon but wasn't able to gain access to the proceedings. Not sure if it was because it was after the hearing had reconvened or whether IT related (my browser?)

eulittleb831 · 10/02/2025 09:35

Scout2016 · 10/02/2025 09:19

I'm so near but so far with my husband. Completely in support of Sandie but then says things like "with the sexual element around fear of attack or being filmed or perved on, wouldn't employers be in a difficult situation if a straight man complained about changing with a gay man, for the same fears? Or even if they all happened to be gay men and don't want to get changed together in case of attack or voyerism or secret filming?"

I think what he means is if employers accept that men are a threat, don't they have a duty to protect male employees from each other too?
I got fed up to be honest, he's too detached and theoretical about things for me to be able to discuss it. Also said he would have a problem at all getting changed in front of women. Thinking about health care actually, there are many men who would prefer intimate care from a woman rather than another man so I wouldn't be suprised if they also wouldn't be bothered about mixed changing rooms for themselves, given that the fear element is removed. Possibly it would make things safer for men.

As a separate note, a gay male friend is in a meet up group for other gay men. They meet locally then head to the Village together, that sort of thing. A TiF has started turning up and they are all a bit WTF? But none of them has said anything or told her not to come. They are all just hoping she'll stop coming. I wonder if she feels accepted as a gay man, when actually they all discuss her, feel she shouldn't be there and hope she won't turn up.

Sorry to ramble!

From my perspective the duty is to provide separate changing facilities for the sexes - if we go along the lines of your argument then women may need to be protected from lusty lesbians as well. The legal imperative is to divorce the sexes on the basis of sex, not sexuality.

FallenSloppyDead · 10/02/2025 09:35

CheekySnake · 10/02/2025 09:29

I wonder if there will be any discussion about the fact that the NHS had a contradictory changing room policy. They provided separate male and female spaces but had a written policy that said users were free to chose which one they went in. So they were both single sex and unisex at the same time.

Seems like that is a common NHS policy. The results of this case will have repercussions across the NHS

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 10/02/2025 09:35

TT have started their tweeting! @eulittleb831

nauticant · 10/02/2025 09:37

Have you tried to log in today @Greyrockin? If so, what browser are you using and what did attempting to log in get you?

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Madcats · 10/02/2025 09:37

eulittleb831 · 10/02/2025 09:20

I've used the tribunal tweets link in the absence of a response to a remote viewing request. I was swarmed by the transactivists previously and am banned, I am getting the following response, as attached - is it just me or is the tweeting not live at the moment?

Try a different browser.

There should be a pinned tweet below (day 5 of Peggie ET) and tweets from Friday below that.

TT will probably set up day 6 just before 10am.

I can't imagine that it will get going before 11am, possibly after lunch.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 10/02/2025 09:40

The 1992 regulations don't create rights for employees as individuals, but impose obligations on employers - to provide certain facilities. Nothing is said about policing use of the facilities.

Of course it was 'obvious' what was meant. But I think trans people could claim established rights, because they would always use the facilities of their acquired gender, if they could get away with it. And because they were rare, timid, and made a bit of passing effort, they did get away with it.

The EA2010 does provide exemptions and exceptions that could enable true sex-segregated provision (Sex Matters has lots of information), but providers just don't do it, because #bekind/expense/whatever.

There's a good explanation by NC on Sex Matters of the legal import of a GRC. Now that tax, pensions, and marriage have been sorted, virtually the only significance is for identifying a comparator in discrimination cases. So, eg Upton would say excluding him from the women's changing room would be discriminatory vis-a-vis both sex and gender reassignment, and this applies whether he has a GRC or not. It's not about the exclusion per se but the resulting lack of 'suitable' provision, meaning he is disadvantaged compared both to a 'cis' person of the same legal sex, and to any person of the opposite legal sex.

It doesn't make him female for evidentiary purposes. If an Orthodox Jewish or Muslim nurse complained because they've got nowhere to change (man in the changing room), the man having a GRC wouldn't fix the problem. I would love to see that argument play out.

Mayaisashero · 10/02/2025 09:40

YourWiseBee · 10/02/2025 08:40

I’m not surprised they are unhappy. I know my husband would be uncomfortable.

But in this instance they have the power, so the repercussions will be different. No way would a man be suspended for questioning a women in his changing room. With men in women’s spaces, the power balance is in the opposite direction so in Fife, Upton held all the cards.

I want to say 'wouldn't it be nice if men challenged this as SP has done' but then in a nanosecond I realised that if a man said to a transman to please not use the men's changing, there is zero chance the transman would escalate as DU has done and every chance that hospital management would make the transman use a third space and support the men wanting single sex spaces.

Misogyny knows what sex everyone is.

nauticant · 10/02/2025 09:40

If people want to follow Tribunal Tweets on Twitter then if you have an account, this link gives a "clean" feed with much of the extraneous tweeting removed:

https://x.com/search?q=from%3Atribunaltweets&src=typed_query&f=live

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Skyellaskerry · 10/02/2025 09:43

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 10/02/2025 08:20

I'm so disappointed that I have several fixed meetings today where I'll have to pay attention and do some work.

I can only imagine how fast these threads are going to move and I have no real hope of catching up in the gaps! It's very sad!

Me too!!!

Signalbox · 10/02/2025 09:45

BezMills · 10/02/2025 09:14

I guess that DU went to Edinburgh, which is completely 'use the loo you want', not sure when but for a while now.

I was at Potterrow SU a year or two ago and the doors to the large toilets in the basement just had a list of contents, rather than (as previously) Male and Female. So the ex-male toilet said sth like "Urinals and stalls" and the ex-female toilet said "Stalls".

I went to a pub with this system recently. Presumably all that happens is women completely avoid the “urinals and stalls” loo whilst men get to use both which results in female provision being reduced.

Cerialkiller · 10/02/2025 09:46

Usually a lurker but woke up with a cold today so decided to say fuck it, and after school drop off i went to tescos for snacks and I here ready to watch live for the first time after sitting open mouthed last week reading all your posts.

I need to go back and read from the beginning of the thread but would anyone mind posting the link watch the ET live!!!?? many thanks.

nauticant · 10/02/2025 09:47

Cerialkiller · 10/02/2025 09:46

Usually a lurker but woke up with a cold today so decided to say fuck it, and after school drop off i went to tescos for snacks and I here ready to watch live for the first time after sitting open mouthed last week reading all your posts.

I need to go back and read from the beginning of the thread but would anyone mind posting the link watch the ET live!!!?? many thanks.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

OP posts:
eulittleb831 · 10/02/2025 09:49

Cerialkiller · 10/02/2025 09:46

Usually a lurker but woke up with a cold today so decided to say fuck it, and after school drop off i went to tescos for snacks and I here ready to watch live for the first time after sitting open mouthed last week reading all your posts.

I need to go back and read from the beginning of the thread but would anyone mind posting the link watch the ET live!!!?? many thanks.

go to page 1, email [email protected] with a public access request - I did yesterday, am waiting to hear, tribunal tweets on X do a fab service as well

Greyrockin · 10/02/2025 09:49

nauticant · 10/02/2025 09:37

Have you tried to log in today @Greyrockin? If so, what browser are you using and what did attempting to log in get you?

I think I'm in the lobby. I'm on Google Chrome and have this screen, with a message saying "waiting for the conference host to join"

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #7
Boiledbeetle · 10/02/2025 09:50
court gavel GIF by South Park

I'm up. I'm awake. I'm washed and dressed. I've fed me and the cats, done the dishes and now as I'm WFTCHTJ I shall go make a cup of tea.

Bring it on!

nauticant · 10/02/2025 09:50

Sounds all good @Greyrockin.

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lnks · 10/02/2025 09:50

Has anyone emailed for access but not had a response? I haven't heard anything and I'm really keen to watch today

mzdemeanour · 10/02/2025 09:50

@Cerialkiller you aren't allowed to share the link to watch the tribunal live but need to email to ask for observer access - [email protected] with subject line Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board 4104864/2024

HTH

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